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| Guitar Crash...Help!!! http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10102&t=9737 |
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| Author: | JJ Donohue [ Sat Dec 09, 2006 8:51 am ] |
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Please be sitting down when you look at this pic. 
I'd really rather not go into the cause of the drop but I'm just sick about it. I figure I have 2 options: 1) HHG the large crack...CA the smaller crack and HHG the top back on 2) Remove the back and try to find another Any advice or other options would be appreciated. TIA |
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| Author: | LanceK [ Sat Dec 09, 2006 8:55 am ] |
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JJ, if the crack closes up tight, i would try that first, I think id go with CA, you could spot glue it to sort of nail it shut, then slowly wick in the rest. I have done this with CA on cracks that go -- with-- the grain and they have came out invisable. BUT that said, if you have any areas of open end grain, that may show. Man dude, I feel bad for you 
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| Author: | Bobc [ Sat Dec 09, 2006 8:57 am ] |
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JJ I am really saddened by this disaster. I think the sapele is easily repairable. With all that figure I doubt that you would notice a repair with HHG. What happened to the top? Is it cracked too? What wood is the top. I will happily donate a new top to help ease your pain. |
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| Author: | JJ Donohue [ Sat Dec 09, 2006 9:01 am ] |
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Correction...I meant the back. The top is fine. Thanks for the offer, Bob. Thank goodness the top is OK. The rosette took me many days to get it right! Tomorrow, I'll look at it with fresh eyes and try to repair with HHG on the major crack. I think the minor crack will wick CA in just fine. I'm not sure that there isn't any brace damage yet...I was too irrational to fully assess the disaster. Lance...There's no end grain damage. |
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| Author: | Bobc [ Sat Dec 09, 2006 9:10 am ] |
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On second thought I think Lance is right. CA is the way to go. Sometimes I'll put a clamp across the crack to see how well the crack closes. If it looks good ease off on the clamp get the CA in and re-clamp. Should be a very strong repair. If not I may have a back in my personal stash. 
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| Author: | JJ Donohue [ Sat Dec 09, 2006 9:16 am ] |
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Wouldn't HHG have a tendency to draw the crack closed? I can go either way. |
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| Author: | KiwiCraig [ Sat Dec 09, 2006 9:17 am ] |
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I think it's a repairable one J.J. Clamp, wedge , more clamps, do what you have to do to get it back in alignment and like the guys say ,, C.A. That's the last time "the Who " are invited to a party Huh ! Incredibly Kind offer Bob. Craig |
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| Author: | Don Williams [ Sat Dec 09, 2006 9:18 am ] |
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Hesh has a good point there....plus, the CA will wick through and show on the inside. If you carefully remove the back, you can do a more invisible repair. Chin up JJ, it happens to us all...we all have those war stories to tell, and we all get through them one way or another. |
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| Author: | JJ Donohue [ Sat Dec 09, 2006 9:21 am ] |
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Hesh...Good idea...I'm going to see if there is brace damage before deciding on a repair. It wouldn't be such a big deal to remove the back...that way I could be sure that everything is as good as it was before the crash. |
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| Author: | Pwoolson [ Sat Dec 09, 2006 9:23 am ] |
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JJ, I would normally agree with the CA vote. But I've used this wood and I know that CA will soak through and make an ugly mess on the inside. If you can do the repair with HHG, I'd be inclined to advise you to go that route. Look on the bright side, you have your tennon jig done!! 
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| Author: | old man [ Sat Dec 09, 2006 9:27 am ] |
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Wow, J.J., what a bummer, and that is some mighty beautiful wood. I have faith that you can do it!! Ron |
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| Author: | JJ Donohue [ Sat Dec 09, 2006 9:29 am ] |
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Per the Zootman..."If not I may have a back in my personal stash." ...so we've been getting 2nd class stuff for all these years!!! 
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| Author: | JJ Donohue [ Sat Dec 09, 2006 9:41 am ] |
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Thanks Paul...and your tenon jig is wonderful...thanks for making the plans available. Update...there is, in fact, brace damage...it split where it tucks in extending to about the middle of the brace. The broken brace may have been a blessing in disguise. Looks like the back is coming off tomorrow. I'm off to a cocktail and dinner party tonight...just the ticket to get my mood elevated! |
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| Author: | L. Presnall [ Sat Dec 09, 2006 12:14 pm ] |
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Oh man, not the QUILTED!  JJ, I once did the same thing to an heirloom curio cabinet I'd built for my mom as a christmas present...it was sitting up on the table saw ready to get loaded onto the truck when I opened the overhead shop door...a zillion pieces after 2 weeks of work! I feel for you and I know you'll fix 'er up right and have a beautiful guitar!
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| Author: | Alain Desforges [ Sat Dec 09, 2006 12:14 pm ] |
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JJ... Bummer my friend... Major bummer... That is some pretty wild looking zoot! Very nice... I'm sure you'll be able to repair that and the lonly thing left will be bad memories...
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| Author: | Brock Poling [ Sat Dec 09, 2006 12:18 pm ] |
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I personally I would try to fix it with the back in place, if that doesn't work you can always take it off. And, I would plow on. In a worst case scenario if you can see the crack after it is glued up I would sunburst the back and sides. That looks great with a clean top - and you would never be able to tell. It will look super hot. |
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| Author: | David Collins [ Sat Dec 09, 2006 1:37 pm ] |
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You call that a crack? I guess I would see a crack like that as nothing more than a minor inconvenience. Looks like its still in the raw, and with a clean reglue it should never be visible. I would offer my dissent to the CA method, and suggest using hide glue if you're comfortable you can get it applied and closed before gelling (another benefit to fish glue), although a PVA would work fine as well. I think a CA glue line would be more visible than the options, but the main catch could be it's cure time. Even if you use thin CA to wick in to an already clamped joint if something shifts or you have to position anything while glueing and it bonds while not quite aligned then your screwed. On cracks like this I choose an adhesive with a comfortable working time. Even if the joint was perfect, the thin CA saturates too far in to the surface and would be a major pain to clean both inside and out. I would say this is not worth sweating over, much less pondering back removal. It's a clean fresh crack on an unfinished box. I would personally probably get the crack, braces and back/side glued all in one clamping - another guilty pleasure of the working time of fish glue. Glue it up and move on. If it's done well even you shouldn't ever be able to find where it was. |
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| Author: | JJ Donohue [ Sat Dec 09, 2006 2:34 pm ] |
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David...thanks for the suggestion on using fish glue. Until now, I hadn't considered that but it really makes sense. I would have a glue that more closely matches the HHG already present but have the luxury of working time. Just to confirm...in spite of the fact that the 4th brace has a 3" split, you would still recommend repairing without removing the back? Also, there is a smaller crack barely visible above the major crack in the pic that is not opened. To me it seems that the only alternative is CA...I don't know how I would ever get FG in there for a bond. Waddya think? |
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| Author: | JJ Donohue [ Sat Dec 09, 2006 2:52 pm ] |
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Fish Glue...Lee Valley has it already mixed. Is that the stuff I should use or are there granules available like HHG? |
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| Author: | Alain Desforges [ Sat Dec 09, 2006 3:02 pm ] |
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JJ, I think fish glue comes allready mixed, a la Lee Valley. That's the stuff I bought to glue on the top and back to the rims and I love it... |
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| Author: | JJ Donohue [ Sat Dec 09, 2006 3:32 pm ] |
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Thanks Alain...That's all I needed to know...I'll order it. |
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| Author: | Steve Kinnaird [ Sat Dec 09, 2006 4:17 pm ] |
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JJ, even with your mood discernably brighter, I still feel your pain. And thanks for the warning...I'm glad I was sitting down. I'm sure you'll do fine, and you'll have another skill in your bag of tricks. Steve |
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| Author: | David Collins [ Sat Dec 09, 2006 7:28 pm ] |
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Hi JJ, Don't bother ordering it. I order it by the gallon directly from Norland and have plenty to spare. I'll send you some, along with a butterfly needle for getting glue in to the crack. Perhaps I'll try to post a quick tutorial on the forum on how I use these for hard to reach braces by the time you get the package. I hesitate to trust the Lee Valley stuff, even though it is supposed to be the same stuff that I use. The only problems I've ever heard of with fish glue has been from glue bought through Lee Valley, and I've never had any of those problems with mine. I speculate that they may buy in too large of quantities and end up keeping it on the shelf past a reasonable shelf life. I also doubt that they keep it refrigerated. It may be fine, but it may also be a game of chance. I buy at least one replacement gallon per year fresh from the factory, even though I keep it refrigerated (except for a small "current use" bottle on my bench) and it should last much longer than that. I figure at the cost of about $30 once a year, I might as well play it extra safe. PM me your address and I'll send you some on monday. And no, I don't have enough to go around for everyone - this is understandably a special pity case .
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| Author: | Don Williams [ Sat Dec 09, 2006 11:46 pm ] |
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The more I think about it, the more I would have to agree that HHG (or fish glue as David suggests, although I have no experience with it) is the better choice for this kind of repair. I've found HHG to make nearly-invisible repairs at times. Brock's burst idea is a good one... |
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