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| HHG vs Fish Glue http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10102&t=9763 |
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| Author: | Lillian F-W [ Sun Dec 10, 2006 11:45 pm ] |
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Can someone enlighten me to the differences between these two as well as how to handle them? Thanks and happy Monday. |
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| Author: | Pwoolson [ Sun Dec 10, 2006 11:52 pm ] |
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Fish glue comes in a bottle much like titebond. It tacks up very qickly (about a minute) and needs about 24 hours for full cure. It dries very hard like HHG does. In my opinion, I think it's as good if not better than HHG for instrument applications. Plus the added benefit of having time to work rather than having to rush things makes it my glue of choice. |
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| Author: | Kim [ Mon Dec 11, 2006 12:19 am ] |
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[QUOTE=Pwoolson] Fish glue comes in a bottle much like titebond. It tacks up very qickly (about a minute) and needs about 24 hours for full cure. It dries very hard like HHG does. In my opinion, I think it's as good if not better than HHG for instrument applications. Plus the added benefit of having time to work rather than having to rush things makes it my glue of choice. [/QUOTE] Paul, Not wanting to question your judgment but I read the attached stating that fish glue is a lot more hygroscopic than HHG but have no personal experiance, what is your opinion? [QUOTE] Q: I was told that fish glue is just as good as hot hide glue, just as strong, and much easier to apply. What do you think about doing a player with it? A: Fish glue is a "specialty glue" only. It is not designed to glue player actions together. It is mainly used for emulsions, but the pipe organ industry uses it to get an instant grip between leather and leather, or leather and cloth. It allows soft lambskin to be contoured around corners because of its cold tack properties. On the other hand, fish glue is very hygroscopic (meaning that it draws moisture from the air). Long-term humidity alone can disassemble parts put together with fish glue, whereas hot hide glue, once fully dry, can withstand about any amount of humidity without weakening, and over 400 degrees Fahrenheit without softening [/QUOTE] HERE is the link where this came from and Fank Ford has the same link on very bottom of his page "I’ll stick with hide glue" page. Cheers Kim |
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| Author: | Pwoolson [ Mon Dec 11, 2006 12:34 am ] |
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I'm not sure if MORE is accurate as HHG doesn't handle water well either. I've had a very easy time releasing HHG with moisture (think steaming off a neck?) But yes, water and fish glue don't get along well. I don't see it as an issue and I hope my guitars aren't used under water. (I don't buy the thought that humidity will cause it to fail) |
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| Author: | Don Williams [ Mon Dec 11, 2006 2:47 am ] |
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I think in a prior discussion on FG that someone mentioned that they did a test to see if excess humidity would cause the FG to fail, and they didn't have any issues. I could be remembering incorrectly. Do a search in the archives here. |
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| Author: | Arnt Rian [ Mon Dec 11, 2006 7:45 am ] |
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I just got a bottle of the Lee Valley stuff from Madinter in Spain and I am planning to use it on my next guitar. Shawn can probably comment on this, but I believe it is the glue of choice in Romanillos guitar making class, as well as in lots of Spanish guitar maker's shops. David Collins, who has used if for years, just posted about it over on MIMF, and based on his experiences the humidity resistance problems seems to be mostly myth. The glue can go bad if it's old, which may or may not be the reason people have reported problems. Also according to David, you know if the glue is bad if it loses its "stringiness" and starts to smell sour. |
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| Author: | Kim [ Mon Dec 11, 2006 7:52 am ] |
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Thanks Arnt, That is the biggest problem with the net, if someone assumes something to be true because it "sounds right" there is nothing to stop them from publishing it. If they happen to have cred in other areas, this can lead to all sorts of confusion. Cheers Kim |
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| Author: | David Collins [ Mon Dec 11, 2006 12:20 pm ] |
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If I see that article from the player piano guy I'm going to barf. I don't know the guy personally, but I really wonder where he gets his information from - probably from a book that was written by someone who heard this from and "expert" who heard it from....... - Has he ever actually used the stuff??? I don't know. It's about the only wood glue I use anymore. I have instruments that have been very mistreated and have held up fine with high humidity. If you kept it near 100% humidity continuously for months then chances are good that joints under stress will fail. The thing is that in spite of the what the player piano fellow says, so will hide glue. All the guitars I see pulled from michigan basements have proved that to me. If you store your guitar near 100% humidity it's going to swell like a baloon so much that things will be popping left and right no matter what you use. I'm sorry to rant, and I mean no offense to anyone. It's just that every time I hear these same criticisms, I always end up tracking them back to this one single reference to the glue by a typical radical hide glue fanatic (no offense intended to the radical hide glue fanatics here on the forum), who also has his own "special formula" hide glue that he sells at the bottom of the page. I'm not going to try to convert people from hide glue, and if you're fluent and comfortable with it there's no reason to. Hide glue can be much more convenient for it's quick dry and short clamping time. Hide glue probably is a little more moisture resistant than fish glue, but that's only my speculation. My actual experience has not shown any evidence of this, and if there is a difference I can't see it being much. I still haven't found time to do the controlled experiments I've been planning to do for ages. "That is the biggest problem with the net, if someone assumes something to be true because it "sounds right" there is nothing to stop them from publishing it. If they happen to have cred in other areas, this can lead to all sorts of confusion. " Well put Kim. I suppose I could have just said that instead of ranting on about it. I suppose I don't see it as a HHG vs. fish glue argument. They just two slightly different glues amoung a world of adhesives, and like all adhesives will have thier strengths and weaknesses. Pick the glue right for the job. Fish glue is certainly more friendly to things like crack repairs or other joints that takes time to assemble or work glue in to. On the other hand it would be foolish to chose fish glue over hide glue for a factory setting because of it's cure time. If you want to keep production moving and don't need a terribly long open time than hide glue is certainly the better choice. |
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| Author: | Alain Desforges [ Mon Dec 11, 2006 12:43 pm ] |
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Well said guys. I'm an avid believer in HHG. I use if for everything that I'm quick enough. On my last project, I tried Fish Glue to glue on the top and back to the rims and I loved it! Over 1 hour open time! It does dry hard as glass too. It says right on the bottle 'glue line is susceptible to water'... 'Water' not 'humidity'. I try to keep that in consideration when I bring my guitars SCUBA diving... 
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| Author: | JJ Donohue [ Mon Dec 11, 2006 1:00 pm ] |
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I am anxious to try the fish glue, David! I could be converted. |
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| Author: | David Collins [ Mon Dec 11, 2006 1:11 pm ] |
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Come by my shop sometime Hesh. I just packed up some for JJ, and even after splitting the last bucket with a harpsichod / piano builder friend of mine I still have some left I can spare. |
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| Author: | Colin S [ Mon Dec 11, 2006 9:49 pm ] |
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I'm a keen user of hide glue, and have never used Fish glue though I know a lot of very good luthiers who do, including my favourite classical builder. The reason I've never used fish glue? I haven't found a supplier in the UK! But it seems from Arnt that one of my regular suppliers of wood, Madinter in Spain, does now carry it, so that's going to be added to my next order. For jobs like gluing on the top and back plates it would seem ideal. Though I still want to try setting fire to the back after using hide glue to soften it before clamping. Colin |
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| Author: | Lillian F-W [ Mon Dec 11, 2006 11:27 pm ] |
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[QUOTE=Colin S]Snipe Though I still want to try setting fire to the back after using hide glue to soften it before clamping. Colin[/QUOTE] ??? Care to elaborate? |
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| Author: | Colin S [ Tue Dec 12, 2006 1:21 am ] |
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[QUOTE=Aoibeann] [QUOTE=Colin S]Snipe Though I still want to try setting fire to the back after using hide glue to soften it before clamping. Colin[/QUOTE] ??? Care to elaborate?[/QUOTE] Lillian, it's an old Spanish method we've discussed here before, whereby you fit the back braces to the sides then apply hide glue to the braces and rims, fit the back and then wipe alcohol over the part of the back over the rims and braces. Set fire to the alcohol, the heat softens the glue through the back, clamp up and your done! I'm just plucking up the courage to try it. The photos would be spectacular! Colin |
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| Author: | Graham Steward [ Tue Dec 12, 2006 3:22 am ] |
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This is very interesting. I think I will give Fish glue a try. Is this the kind of stuff you guys are talking about? http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=20019&cat=1,11 0,42965&ap=1 How long a shelf life does this stuff have before it goes bad? |
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| Author: | Peter J [ Tue Dec 12, 2006 4:00 am ] |
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Here is a link to the mfg's website with a thorough explanation of the product. It is basically the same protein as HHG with many of the same properties except for the temperature requirements. It can be used at ambient. https://www.norlandprod.com/techrpts/fishgelrpt.html |
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| Author: | jfrench [ Tue Dec 12, 2006 4:14 am ] |
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I got my fish glue from Kremer Pigments - but I am planning to try the Lee Valley stuff. I haven't had a batch go bad. I use it wherever I can, and especially for things like bracing the top and gluing the bridge. Its great for making rosette logs as you don't have to clean up any ooze out - just add more glue and press the next pieces together. I still use HHG for the V-joint, as it seems to leave less of a line and the fish glue seems a bit thick for it. |
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| Author: | crich [ Tue Dec 12, 2006 4:27 am ] |
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Is there different strength fish glues? Does anyone know if it cleans up like HHG,which is handy to a sloppy person like me. Clinton
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| Author: | jfrench [ Tue Dec 12, 2006 4:40 am ] |
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As far as I know you cannot buy it in different strengths. Water will clean it up pretty easily. |
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| Author: | Colin S [ Tue Dec 12, 2006 5:01 am ] |
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[QUOTE=jfrench] I got my fish glue from Kremer Pigments - but I am planning to try the Lee Valley stuff. <Snip> I still use HHG for the V-joint, as it seems to leave less of a line and the fish glue seems a bit thick for it.[/QUOTE] Buy it! Joshua I thought you just boiled up a batch of fish skins. You'll be telling me next that you buy your shellac rather than harvest the resin from the Laccifer lacca beetles in the forest yourself. Do you know, someone started a rumour that you had a power buffer, but I knew it couldn't be true.
Please leave me with some of my dreams. Colin |
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| Author: | David Collins [ Tue Dec 12, 2006 5:03 am ] |
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I've never bought the glue from them, but the few times I've heard of complaints or problems they were with glue bought from Lee Valley. It's purely speculation, but if Lee Valley buys in quantities larger than they could quickly resell, and if they don't keep thier stock refrigerated it's possible that glue sold later in a batch could be past it's prime. I buy a gallon about once a year (one gallon doesn't meet their minimum order, but it's only a few extra dollars to tell them to just charge the minimum) directly from Norland. If it's refrigerated it should last well over a year, but I've noticed it does become a little less stringy if left that long at room temperature. It's also completely freeze/thaw stable, so I'm sure you could extend the life by keeping your extra stock frozen. For about thirty dollars a year it has been worth my peace of mind to buy direct from the manufacturer and know that it's fresh. And Clinton, no it's not sold in different gram strengths. I did order a gallon of their Hi-Pure Liquid Gelatin with my last order to experiment with. I know I keep promising this, but I want to use it in a pretty massive testing experiment with a wide range of glues and adhesives. I wanted to try some different tackifiers with the pure gelatin, along with mixes with hide glues, rabbit skin glue and so on. I got a bunch of stuff like aluminum sulfate, ferrous sulfate and polyvinyl alchohol to try some ideas with too. Norland does make a higher molecular weight gelatin, but it's sold in larger quantities to food and pharmaceutical industries (I'm sure they've pickup up a lot of business in these markets since the mad cow situation, and embargoes on bovine products that followed). |
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| Author: | JJ Donohue [ Tue Dec 12, 2006 5:09 am ] |
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David...So, you buy this already premixed...not granules like HHG? |
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| Author: | Arnt Rian [ Tue Dec 12, 2006 7:38 am ] |
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[QUOTE=Graham Steward] How long a shelf life does this stuff have before it goes bad? [/QUOTE] It says shelf life 2 years. |
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