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I didn't want to highjack Steve's thread regarding the "lower priced" guitars. But there is something there that I find somewhat troubling.
It was briefly mentioned that there were several "newbies" on the list. To me, the title means nothing. But I would caution anyone that has very few guitars under their belt to think twice about taking a leap like this.
Here's my logic: if you were to go forward with this and get a commission out of it, the guitar will likely have flaws. (heaven knows my early ones sure did) No matter what the client says about not minding the cosmetic flaws, truth is that they will. The only guitars they have likely seen are "perfect" guitars hanging on the walls of guitar center. So things like a slipped miter or a neck joint that isn't dead on will stand out.
This might not be a big deal as it's only one person involved in the commission. But keep in mind that this information has been requested on a public forum. Therefore, a review will likely be posted on a public forum. If it's bad, you have no way of defending yourself because anything you say will just sound like excuses. And negative press will slaughter your career before it even has a chance to leave the ground.
I can't stress enough how frustrating, exciting, etc it is to want your guitars out there. It's been 6 years and things are just now picking up to a point where I want them to be. But you have to be patient. Pushing something that isn't ready to be out there will only tarnish your name.
My advice: (and take it for what it cost you) is if you don't have many guitars built, keep it local. Friends, neighbors, pastors, friends of friends, neighbors of neighbors, etc. It will grow slowly. That way if you have a glaring problem, it's contained to a small area.

Well said, Paul

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Give me 50 cents worth of regular.
Check my oil too, if you don`t mind,,,

Paul,
I agree. That is a great caution. If anyone has posted on that thread and wants to be removed, please let me know - PM or other wise.

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"An adventure is only an inconvenience rightly considered. An inconvenience is an adventure wrongly considered." G. K. Chesterton.

Sage advice, Paul.
Slow growth IS the best.

Steve

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From Nacogdoches...the oldest town in Texas.

http://www.stephenkinnaird.com

Yes indeed What I would suggest to start putting their work out is to build for friends, family or donate to students and needy. Request honest feed back. hone the issues out to the point you can build with out reproducing the errors. If you are truly honest with you self about your work you will know when you can get out there for retail sales. You have to know that you can stand behind your work and mean it. Period!!!

You have very good points Paul. Every builder grows at a different rate, I know several builders here in BC that have grow very quickly and are doing exectionally well, one builds 30-40 guitars a year and he has only been on his own for 7 years now, the other, just raised his prices to $4,500 (and still has a full order book) after only 7 years on his own also. Now both were Larrivee apprentices, but that doesn't always mean much. So growth is a different thing for different people. Sometimes, some just have something, unexplainable that others don't have, this is rare I'll admit, but I've seen it with these two builders. I've played both guitars and both are fine instruments, but I've certainly seen and played better which are being sold for less.


I would like to add some of my own thoughts regarding when to sell etc...

There are two very very important things that need to be in place IMO in order to be able to sell something that you've built in a competitive market, be it a guitar, piece of furniture, website.....fill in the blank.

First thing that the builder/creator/designer/maker what ever one might call himself MUST be confident in what he/she is building, that it will meet or preferably exceed the expectations of the purchaser. You must be confident that it is constructed to last "a life time" need only typical maintenance and upkeep. You must be confident that it will not fall apart and that it is constructed to an accepted standard for the price being sold. This is very important.

Second and I believe maybe more important than the first, is that the builder/creator/designer/maker what ever one might call himself MUST be confident that IF any breakdown in the item, which is deemed to have been because of a construction flaw the maker of the item MUST be able to repair it.

So I don't see any reason why, if these two criteria are in place, that anyone can't include their name in the hat.

The other thing is that if a purchaser has done his homework and has asked enough questions, they will base their decision on what they feel is best, not because someone else in the luthier or guitar building community says they should.

I sold my second guitar for a very competitive price. The owner "insisted" that I build him the guitar. I gave him every reason why I shouldn't but he still insisted. He also was the one to come up with the sale price. I'm not proud but I will say that the sale price was more that many here have posted as there base "custom" price. It did have a cutaway and some simple, but extra inlay.

He gave me the confidence that I could build a good instrument and when he came and picked it up, it surpassed his expectation. The next two guitars where the same and all three are used on a regular basis in the public arena and they (the owners) have been told by several other players that they sound and play better than many $2,500 production shop guitars that they own or have played.

So confidence is really the key. Everyone has to start somewhere, and I feel that being on the low end of the sales price is a natural place to start. Getting paid to build is quite the incentive to step up the quality of the construction.

I agree with Don also that some of the prices listed here are too low for a custom built instrument. Low prices hurt the market. Remember, most of the people looking at a Taylor, Larrivee, Martin (higher end) factory built guitars are planning on spending around $1,800 or more anyway, so why shouldn't they get a custom for the same price or slightly higher. It will most certainly sound as good or most likely better and have some options that would be hard if not impossible to get from the factor guitar.

This is one industry that generally underpays the makers of items.

Of course everyone has to start somewhere, and I don't see why if as mentioned the above criteria is in place, that a custom built guitar should sell for any less than $1,500, even if it's only your second or third guitar.

Remember though that this is my opinion, you can all take it or leave it, but I don't appologize for it.

I certainly know that I'm opening up a rather large can of worms here, but that's ok, we can certainly talk about it.Rod True39059.563287037

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"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson

Paul, thank you! I must admit that i'm not ready for this even if my will to become a full time luthier is very strong, i think your advice to stay local for the next instruments is very sound and will listen to that kind of wisdom. And besides, i got a few more people to spoil!

Thanks Paul, i appreciate the time you took to write this for us.

Serge

Rod, great post bro, very well said!

I'll add COMPETENCE to the list.

For example, I may be (mistakenly)confident that I can sing a rendition of "O holy night" as good as the Rod, but the world will judge my COMPETENCE. (My stomach still hurts from laughing so hard Rod, and it still brings a tear to my eye)

Passion, desire, and vision needs to be tempered with experience, self-restraint, and subject to harsh scrutiny. And experience means mistake till you get to the EXCELLENCE stage. Some will do it in less than 10m builds, and some will not ever arrive.

And it's actually not too tough to make some nice exotic woods look gorgeous under .004"-.008" of high gloss finish, it's excrutiatingly disappointing to play one with poor tone.

Self examination, and scrutiny from other experienced builders and player is important, critical in my mind.

Thanks Paul. Good points. Humility comes before honor. And a man skilled in his craft will serve before kings and not obscure men.

Great closing words Terry, and alround great post.

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My Facebook Guitar Page

"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson

I might chime in here as well. I have seen a trend lately where
"handmade" guitars are gaining in popularity - mostly due to people
discovering that they are not much more expensive than a nice Taylor or
Martin.

I would strongly caution anyone who doesn't feel their guitars are ready
for primetime to ever sell to the public. For the last couple years I have
been doing what I call an R&D period where I build guitars at my actual
cost. The third guitar I ever built was excellent build quality but still had
some small and minor flaws. Even tho it was far nicer than most factory
guitars, I would never had wanted review of that guitar to made
available to folks. In fact, I have specifically stated to people not to post a
review but to merely give me feedback and any ideas for improvement. I
have only in this very last batch of guitars felt like I "nailed" down every
last detail in both aesthetics and construction.

The first time you really want public exposure in the sense of online
reviews and taking orders is when you are ready to sell at full-price.

And I personally think that having a low base price is a double-edged
sword. If you start out at $2000 and are building a great instrument -
people will still question your guitars when you need to raise your price.

To break into this market, you really need to wait until you are ready.

Good luck to everyone (me included )

Peace Out,
Simon

Paul;
You just got the most incredible and correct answers to your question.

I still build guitars with the same passion I did 30 years ago and pricing can get to me sometimes.
WHY? because some players just deserve a great guitar -and I'd love to give them one -BUT we all have bills to pay and families to feed.
I actually gave a great singer -songwriter a free guitar
that he loved but could not afford .
To this day he thanks me and that was 25 years ago!
I know I did the right thing also!(wife beat me up bad)
It just felt good to say to a struggling musician -here take it and enjoy!
Well he became prosperous and bought many more guitars from me than he ever needed -?(wife is gone)
So if you love to make guitars-remember they are others that love to make music on our creations.
But need a break also .

Mike Collins
Mike Collins39059.6693402778

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Mike Collins

Mike, what great advice!

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Lance@LuthiersForum.com

I've always admired the guys who, at their own expense, send their guitars out to honest and trustworthy luthiers and musicians for a complete evaluation. This takes a lot of courage but it also shows how serious they are in getting it right in every aspect of construction and sound. I know of only a few of our forum mambers who have invested the time and money to achieve this level of acceptance and approval. I'd be interested in knowing their thoughts as well.

Successfully completing such an evaluation has got to inspire the confidence that Rod described. Were`I spending $2,000++ on a custom built guitar, I would be heavily weighted to the guy who had received a successful peer review.

I believe that those who are selling before their time not only risk their own reputations but also the reputation of custom guitar builders in general.

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

Nicely said JJ...

This reminds me of guys like Tim McKnight, who sent their guitars around around the country to be played by other players and builders, and to get feedback on the overall product. It's about the smartest thing you can do. Wait until you're ready. When your build quality can stand up to the critique of others, then you can start to think about it. If you're a newbie, do what a lot of us have done, and give them away or sell at materials cost to friends until you can build them without issues.

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

I started building for my self. I had a lot of cabinet building experience prior to building guitars so in that aspect of the craft I was off to a fast start. I don't think this is true of most new builders. Some start with a kit guitar straight from the box and it comes out fairly good and they fool them self into believing that they could build a salable instrument right away. I know because it crossed my mind in the early days as well. But I held off except by building for my self, gifts for friends, family and a couple needy members of my church for a couple years.

I was fortunate to have many serious club scene pros as friends. A few of them approached me to build for them. I had been doing repair work for them for a long time. After a couple of at cost jobs, enough of the local pros knew me and had given my latest works some honest critiques. I then set down a built 2 the best I could and placed them in the hands of a couple of the local pros. both guitars ended up selling in a moth of their completion. That was when I decided to offer my work to the general public. But even then I did not offer my work at a premium.

Over the past 5 years I worked my price up slowly as I have felt my skills have improved and as I have offered higher end work and accessories with my guitars.

I am still quite low on my guitars. And that is OK. I make enough to keep building and put a few bucks into tools and such. That is still at this point my main personal financial objective with my luthierie.

When I feel I can produce up there with Traugott, Ryan or the other big dogs I will let you know. But right now all I want to do is build quality instruments and if I only make $5 an hour for my labor. I am quite happy as long as the client is happy with their instrument.

I guess it helps to have a well paying professional carrier out side of my luthierie to help prop my sales tactic up. I am no master luthier. I am only a simple craftsman midstream of a journey in this wonderful craft.

I do not mean to offend anyone but If you have built less than enough guitars to be at a point that the worst a pro player will say about your guitar is ."this is good work." Then you may be jumping into water deeper than you can imagineMichaelP39059.712349537

JJ, I've got a guitar on tour right now. Players and builders alike are reviewing it. It took me 6 years until I felt confident enough to pull the trigger on something like that.
It's somewhat of a terrifying experience. 1)because it's being shipped all over the country and my insurance doesn't cover it because it's out of my hands for packing. I've pretty much marked it off for dead. If it comes back to me in one piece, I'll be pleasantly suprised. If not, well, that's the cost of marketing I guess. and 2) because I don't know the people that are going to receive it. I don't know their playing style. I don't know what kind of guitars they like. It's a total crap shoot.
So far, I've been pretty fortunate. It's gotten rave reviews. There are a couple of people that played in a style that it didn't really fit. Those people were honest enough to say that they appreciated the guitar but it wasn't their style. (Rather than just saying they didn't like it)
John How has one touring now as well, maybe he'll chime in with his experiences.

Here is a thought that I sometimes post on a Hypnotherapist forum. Practice breeds confidence and confidence breeds competence. Hypnosis and building a guitar can be done by anyone. To do them well and at a professional level is another story.

Philip

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aka konacat

If you think my playing is bad you should hear me sing!
Practice breeds confidence and confidence breeds competence. Unfortunately, I'm stuck in practice.

I think this whole thing caused some people to do an honest evaluation. That is always a real good thing. I was a bit concerned when some put their names in when I thought that they are not ready. I'm not ready and my name will not be on that list.

I think my intentions are good, but I wish I had thought this out out a little more. I believe this is a good idea and I hope it generates some orders with happy customers and builders. It will be good publicity for some. There are some that think it is a bad idea and have good reasons for it. I understand that, we are all entitled to our opinions about this and I think I understand the objections and do not completely disagree with them.

Thank you all for raising concern for this in a well thought out, respectful, and eloquent manner. This is especially to you Paul for the great start on this thread.

I believe it has been said many times that the worst mistake a new builder can make is trying to go too fast.

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"An adventure is only an inconvenience rightly considered. An inconvenience is an adventure wrongly considered." G. K. Chesterton.

[QUOTE=Pwoolson]
John How has one touring now as well, maybe he'll chime in with his experiences. [/QUOTE]

Yes I do and it is a scary thing to send on of your own out on the road asking members of a very popular acoustic guitar players forum to spend time with it and then publicly review it for all to see. Talk about white knuckle nerves. You need to be real sure about yourself because it's not so easy to sound confident when you are asked to explain problems in a situation like that. I have been extremely pleased with the results so far but the "big dog" of the forum has the guitar right now and has yet to bark........

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Tickle your guitar daily, and it'll tickle you back.

[QUOTE=Pwoolson] JJ, I've got a guitar on tour right now. [/QUOTE]
Paul, I'd like to know more about how this works. Who gets it... when
does it go someplace else... who does it go to then...?   I don't want to
hyjack this topic ... Maybe start a new topic.

thanks
long

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"No man ever steps in the same river twice, for it's not the same river and he's not the same man.” -Heraclitus of Ephesus

Hi Paul,
           Thanks for this thread . I agree 100% .Any " come-back " issues could easily poison the passion .

Regards , Craig

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CRAIG LAWRENCE of AUSTRALIA
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I guess one thing that I didn't mention is that I (personally) have not solicited any of my builds. This is an entirely different decision. If someone has sot you out in because of a guitar you built and has requested a guitar and if you've given them every reason not to do it but they really want one of yours (like my second) than go for it.

Most likly this will only happen in the friend of a friend venu.

I certainly am not saying that I am ready to go to some of the shows like H-burg etc....but I do feel confident in the criteria that I mentioned and will continue to build guitars for those who seek me out. Word of mouth will be the only advertising I will seek for a very long time.

This is all good advise, sometimes your friends are not good piers, they are too nice most of the time.

Steve, disregard my email

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"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson

I'm not totally sure I agree with the usual thoughts regarding ruined
reputations. It's a small internet but a big world. I know people don't
have 60+ guitar backlogs based on one or two forums, which is where
most of the bashing would take place. I know forum presence can be
very helpful, but I don't believe it can be lethal. Please let me know where
you would disagree.

In 2002 I did jump in too early. I bought back an order from someone
and still owe a friend a guitar that I could not complete, which makes me
feel guilt whenever I check out other forums.

During the same year, a friend of mine went full time. His prices were the
standard rate, but a popular player forum poster said he thought it was
very arrogant. I disagreed. He was asking for what he'd like to receive
for his guitars. If you want to make guitars, just start making guitars. If
they suck, people won't buy them. Personally, I prefer to be as hospitable
as possible in the way I show people things I make. I would make myself
a website with pictures, audio, and video, but that is all stuff I have the
capacity to produce myself.       

We have some good threads going right now. I enjoy it.