Official Luthiers Forum!

I just want to know because I like steel strings and nylon strings. I can’t say weather I like one or the other better, and don’t know what to build next.

I voted for Classicals, but the steel string crowd is a large one. The difference I think is that in the world of Classical Guitarists, everyone HAS to have a handmade instrument, and the players are very interested in the functionality. Whereas in the steel string market it seems most people would be content one day owning a Martin.

There are significantly more players of steel string acoustics than classical it would seem. But the percentage of classical players wanting handmade instruments is surely bigger. This probably balances out the sheer number of potential customers to where it could go either way.


regards,
Joshua French

_________________
Instagram: @jfrenchluthier
Web: https://www.jfrenchguitars.com/

Joshua,

I actully own three pre-war Martins and yes they are great guitars, but I only use one of them, a 00-18, regularly as I'm not taking $50,000 worth of guitars round crowded folk clubs! The collectors have spoilt the market. They are now part of my pension fund.

That's why I started building and do you know, I prefer the sound of the ones that I build. I think steel stringers start off with the ambition of owning an old Martin or Gibson, but then they hear a good modern custom guitar and realise they can have one built to their specification for a quarter of the price of a golden era Martin.

All the classical players that I know are the most finickety bunch you'll ever meet! They all seem harder to please than my wife's mother! And how they play on those long scale wide finger boards I'll never know!

Colin

_________________
I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

I agree with you Joshua,

There is probably a lot fewer players, but almost all have handmade guitars. Another good point is there are MANY classical guitar programs throughout the universities, so that means at least a bunch of new freshman every year, most who will be looking for a new guitar fairly soon after starting school. Another thing, and I don't know why this is, the price you could get for a handmade classical seems more than that for a steelstring. Just look at Guitar Salon International and see all the classicals selling for $6,000 - $10,000, and these aren't colloectors, they're being made by current builders. Also, many classical builders have waiting periods of 4-6 YEARS, and these lists are growing. If you can build a good classical, I think it will sell itself (although that applies to SS also).

Good luck!

John

Colin,

Yes, hopefully the steel string crowd understands that they can have a great guitar hand made by someone, but my point is that *most* probably don't. Enough people know, obviously, because there are many makers selling many guitars. But compared to the amount of steel string players who are perfectly content with their $500 guitars the percentage upgrading to hand made instruments is small.

My point being the average classical guitarist (much like a violinist) is more likely to want a finer instrument. The x-factor here is that there are way more steel string players than classical.

I do not find classical guitarists necessarily hard to please, but they do know what they want out of a guitar. Luckily I often want the same things. I prefer for a customer to challenge my abilities, and consider it of paramount importance in encouraging refinement.

Best wishes,
Joshua French

_________________
Instagram: @jfrenchluthier
Web: https://www.jfrenchguitars.com/

Colin,

you gotta get used to those longer/wider necks. Once you do you'll never go back. The wide fingerboard is actually much easier to play because there is a lot more room to move your fingers around without accidentally muting the strings around it.

Classical players finicky? No, c'mon... That's like saying all Europeans have bad teeth. I think the reason is they are a lot more specific in the type of sound they want, especially playing unamplified most of the time. I think classical players rely on a much bigger tonal palette because of the type of music played.

Cheers!

John

Just my opinion but...I think when it comes to selling HAND MADE guitars... electrics are the easiest. I started out building electrics. I found that many people could afford and would spend $1600-$2200. for a well made electric. Now mind you this is a low-mid price for Hand made. Notice I didn't say "custom". So what I am talking about is making someone a strat or tele copy, maybe a double cut L.P. They can have bolt on or fixed necks. Choice of fret boards (within reason), pickups, trem or no trem, choice of wire. Finish - usually simple one color or natural - tung oil...nothing fancy. Some-what customized but not totaly with one Ed Romans beautiful paint jobs. My point is the customer is spending what they would on a Gibson L.P. or maybe a PRS and they are getting pretty much a personalized instrument. And now a days it seems like they can afford it! People see $2000 electrics hanging on almost every store wall. My profit margin is higher on Electrics only because the time spent building is so much less. For me anyway. For a player to spend $3900-$5000 for an acoustic... your in a whole different league and I find the sale is a little more "sophisticated". A longer build and a little more intense. A different type customer.

_________________
Dave Bland

remember...

"If it doesn't play in tune...it's just pretty wood"

I have a bit of a different market here I guess. When I first started building for sell I figured that I could make basic models at a competitive price to get me off the ground. as it turned out my niche market turned into exotic wood guitars with personal designed inlay. I would not have figured that. But over 80% of my commissions are for wanta be pro's and club and bar performers that want a personalized guitar. So for me I would say the easiest to sell is an 000 or OM with an exotic wood and personalized inlay. I sometimes feel like a bling bling dealer. Then again I should not be surprised. Around here vanity license plates are a big thing here also .

I have no idea. I'm just posting this to work toward catching Bruce in the number of posts so I too can reach Grizzled Veteran status.

That said, there are lots more steel-string buyers out there than classical players. But as someone else said, classical players have to play hand-made instruments, and steel string players would like to play handmade instruments. The number of builders of steel string guitars is going through the roof, and the number of people actually purchasing handmade ss guitars isn't getting a whole laot larger. So what you have is a niche market, and lots of players in it, and few customers.
It's a tough world. I don't expect to be able to make a living building and selling my guitars. Very few guys get to that point. Fewer make a good living at it. My name is out there among some of the other builders for various reasons, but customers haven't a clue who I am unless they surf in to my (pathetic; amateurish) web site.
So, the market for steel strings is much much larger. If you can get advertising, and get your prices down to a level where it becomes an affordable alternative to a Taylor or a Martin, then you have a shot at selling something. Then, time, patience, some good marketing, and a lot of luck might get you to sell a few more. You might even get to be "the" Builder who's guitars everyone wants. Wouldn't that be nice..?

_________________
"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

I just posting this so Don can respond and become a Grzzled Old Veteran

Be careful what you you wish for ......It could come true MichaelP38391.6678125

It's much easier to build a steel string with an acceptable sound, and even the factories do a decent job of that. So the competition is more cosmetic than anything else in the steel string world. If you can come up with some sort of a 'hook', like a corner on the market for some fancy wood or incredible inlay chops, you'll have a real leg up.

That said, Frank Ford once told me that the easiest steel string for him to sell is a Martin copy, and the closer the better. His high demand steel string is a Collings: basically an 'improved' Martin. The further you get from that Martin look the harder it can be to sell one, although perhaps the hardest one to sell is a guitar that looks like a Martin but is not as well done, or has one thing that is 'off'. THese days you might do OK copying Taylor.

Classical guitars are much more standardised (but not as bad in that way as violins), so a real departure in the cosmetic department is more likely to be seen as a drawback in the Classical world. I have one former apprentice who is making a very good living building straight-up traditional looking classicals. The workmanship is first rate, and he's got the sound nailed, but the esthetic is right down the middle. Top notch Classical players can be fussy, particularly as regards evenness of sound. One dead note and you're in trouble.

I sell about equal numbers of steel and Classical guitars. They're different, and each has it's own rewards.

I have to agree that once you get used to the wide neck you never want to go back.

I don't mind being a OLF Grizzled Veteran, but I didn't say nuttin' about being an OLD one! Let's not rush Father Time, shall we?

_________________
"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

I agree with Al about classical players being conservative but I also think that a few of them have an experimantal streak. If they were as hide bound as suggested, Kasha would never had gotten anywhere. If you make a Ramirez or Hauser copy and do it well, you should be able to sell it. If you make a guitar using some high tech unobtainium polymer with a bracing pattern based on the I Ching, you should be able to sell that as well. But put side dots on your Hauser copy and you're stuck with it for life.

Oooohh---Unobtanium. I want some!

_________________
From Nacogdoches...the oldest town in Texas.

http://www.stephenkinnaird.com

Ok, I'm secumbing to topic drift.

So--Q:"What is easier to sell"?
A: You guys sell these things?

How cool. How do you do it?

_________________
From Nacogdoches...the oldest town in Texas.

http://www.stephenkinnaird.com

[QUOTE=John Elshaw] Colin,

That's like saying all Europeans have bad teeth.

John[/QUOTE]

I realise that some people may consider me to be a European interloper on a predominently US forum, but this is the sort of remark that could be construed as grossly offensive and should have no place on this forum.

Colin

_________________
I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

Colin,
We don't think that nor feel that way at all. It's a small world, and we're a community here on this forum. It doesn't matter where we hang our hat. We're international.
The point of that particular saying is that you can't judge a whole group of people based on one person. He could easily have said "That's like saying all Redheads have nasty tempers" or "All American women act like Paris Hilton". A gross injustice based on an observation of one person or thing.
He was saying that classical players aren't really any more finicky than steel string players.
Please don't be offended!Don W38392.2689699074

_________________
"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

Colin,

Don is absolutely right. There are no borders on this forum. I am sure John meant no offense to anyone. Just trying to make point about generalizations. Another short-fall of internet communication, not being able to hear the intent of someones voice.

Jeff

Like Don I do not have a great deal to add however, I always wish to
remain a newbie - you know, Zen mind, beginners mind ... :-)

Working at a high end guitar shop like The Music Emporium where
we carry a wide selection of custom builders as well as the best
small to large factory builders, it is clear that if you want to have the
best shot at selling an instrument to the general market it should be
a steel string, probably OM sized, and kind of traditional. That's
what most people coming through the door are looking for, that or a
Whyte Ladie #7 of course, or harmonium reeds...

I absolutely have a hankering to build a white lady #7. Don't know what I will do with it after its built but it should be fun. Then a vehuela (bad spelling ya?) I wonder how's the vehuela market?

Ok, I confess ignorance....
What's a Whyte Ladie #7 ?    (white lady #7?)

Don W38392.6271527778

_________________
"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

John,

I've been wanting to build a Vihuela as well... and also a baroque guitar... How's the market? I'd be inclined to say almost non-existent as far as regular players are concerned, but then you have that whole museum crowd/early music bunch who seem to be buying plenty of lutes and arch-lutes... so who knows?

Regards,
Joshua French

_________________
Instagram: @jfrenchluthier
Web: https://www.jfrenchguitars.com/

Colin,

I am quite sure John wasn't taking a jab at you, just as you weren't taking a jab at classical players. Just some generalizations no one takes too seriously.

And to reiterate what other people have been saying, this board surely doesn't appear to have boundries, so I couldn't imagine anyone considering you a "European interloper" or anything else. Sometimes these types of attitudes prevail amongst Americans, but guitar makers seem a pretty accepting and reasonable bunch!

Anyhow, at least in terms of classical guitars most American makers could stand to learn a *lot* from the European makers.

Best wishes,
Joshua French

_________________
Instagram: @jfrenchluthier
Web: https://www.jfrenchguitars.com/

Hey Don,
     The Whyte Laydie was a Fairbanks banjo model from around the
early 1900s. There were several grades. The #7 model was pretty
fancy with a carved heel lots of fancy marquetry and a pearl inlay.
We get one coming theough TME every now and then. The Whyte
Laydies are said to have been a real inprovement in tone and
playability over other banjos of the day.
     See you Sunday brother. Hey - could you bring a black acacia
uke top to the meeting? I've changed my mind about using the
redwood. I'll use that for another.

[QUOTE=jfrench] John,

I've been wanting to build a Vihuela as well... and also a baroque guitar... How's the market? I'd be inclined to say almost non-existent as far as regular players are concerned, but then you have that whole museum crowd/early music bunch who seem to be buying plenty of lutes and arch-lutes... so who knows?

Regards,
Joshua French[/QUOTE]

How about that! Never thought I would run across anyone else that was interested in building guitars from that period. Do you have any plans for the vihuela or do you know of anyone who does?