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Any ROundneck players/builders here I have questions
http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10104&t=16697		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Mike Kroening [ Wed Apr 02, 2008 12:51 am ]
Post subject:  Any ROundneck players/builders here I have questions
Hello All,
Well I started what was to be a square neck back in November. After MANY MANY hours of trying to play a borrowed SQNk I have found that it does'nt work for me so, I changed my build to a roundneck.

Now my problem,
First: What is the normal fretboard action height of a roundneck?
Second: I did not build any neck angle in, so it's quite a stretch from the 5th fret to the bridge.
Third: I used a spider and cone, not a biscuit type, so I assume there is a height difference and that is one of the differences why they ( biscuits ) are used for Roundneck vs. Squareneck?

What I would like is someone to measure the string height on there roundneck at the nut and at the 12th fret. I know I'm asking a lot but it would really help me.

I'm thinking I may either have to convert to a biscuit or lower the existing cone. If I lower the cone ,I will then need to turn a wooden cover as the metal covers for a spider will not allow string clearance. If I convert to a biscuit I will need to turn an insert to make the hole smaller for the biscuit cone to fit the exsisting ledge for the Spider cone. I hope that makes some since.

Any suggestions and all are welcome.

Thanks in advance for any feedback on this as I an ready to just trash the project and start over.

Sincerely,
Mike
Author:  Mike Kroening [ Wed Apr 02, 2008 9:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Any ROundneck players/builders here I have questions
FYI,
No Need to respond, I strung up the guitar today. It has a wonderful voice. Unfortunately, I can not play it as a roundneck using the spider bridge. It sounds great as a slide only, but will not fret because the action is just to high. That being said, I think I would destroy what would make a very nice guitar by any other actions by me of lowering the bridge,cone and cover.

I think I'll try and find someone that would like this at a cost of materials for a nice starter Reso to learn on and chalk up the exercise to experience and move on.

I'll post final pics after I am done with the finish.
:)
MK
Author:  Mike Kroening [ Thu Apr 03, 2008 6:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Any ROundneck players/builders here I have questions
Well if any of you have been keeping up with my Screw up :) then you know I had to think through this. I decided to remove the neck. Not as much trouble as I thought but somewhat. Before doing so I measured and found that a 2 1/2 degree neck angle would solve my problem. So today I removed the neck. made some jigs and now have the neck ready to install again. :) YEA!!!! Here's a pic of the progress.

Image

Well that's all at this time so before the neck is properly affixed, It will be strung up and tested again. Wish me luck :)
Thanks for listening to my rambling thought process.
MIke
Author:  Mike Kroening [ Fri Apr 04, 2008 11:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Any ROundneck players/builders here I have questions
Well All,
No change, the neck move improved (somewhat) the problems. But in all not worth the trouble. I have since removed the neck and the top, salvaged the fretboard, back and sides. Otherwise the rest is firewood and I will move forward with a new project at this time. Thanks for listening to my rambling and I hope your projects do not fall prey to the gremlins mine has.
Mike
Author:  Dave Fifield [ Wed May 14, 2008 3:01 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Any ROundneck players/builders here I have questions
Mike,

You have gotten me all confused now.......

I am just about to start building a roundneck resonator guitar from the Beard plan. The plans show a cone and spider. Are you saying that this isn't the normal setup for a roundneck version? I hope not, cuz I just sank a whooooole lotta $$$ into the hardware for this thing.....

Can someone in the know please reassure me that I'm doing the right thing here? That is, a roundneck reso, using a cone and spider bridge, with a neck set angle of about 4 degrees (I want the action to be playable normally, but allow the player to do bottleneck occasionally - so not too low, not too high).

Thanks,
Dave F.
Author:  LouisianaGrey [ Wed May 14, 2008 5:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Any ROundneck players/builders here I have questions
A spider bridge setup is fine for a roundneck - it gives a different tone from a biscuit bridge but, for example, both Chris Thomas King and Eric Clapton have recorded with roundnecked spider bridge instruments.

A four degree angle should work fine. One of the critical things to think about is how far below the top surface the cone mounting ring is - my tops are usually at least a quarter inch thick, which means the top rim of the cone is below the top of the guitar and that gives you more meat to play with on the bridge pieces.

Most important I would advise you to try out your coverplate before you work out the neck geometry (they come with different height handrests, depending on where they are made, so you can't rely on the plan). That will tell you what your maximum and minimum brige height is, because your strings have to go over the top surface of the coverplate and under the bottom of the handrest. I would suggest you try to get the strings towards the top of that gap, because the spider/bridge assembly will settle slightly under string tension. Besides, unlike biscuit bridges, spider bridge instruments benefit from the increased downward pressure that you will get from having a tall bridge.
Author:  Dave Fifield [ Wed May 14, 2008 6:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Any ROundneck players/builders here I have questions
Thanks Pete! That's pretty much what I thought. I plan to draw the whole thing to scale in Corel Draw before I start cutting any wood - I'll make sure to use the actual dimensions taken from the soundwell, cone, coverplate etc. that I plan to use.

FWIW, I have started a build blog for this guitar with pictures (for my customer to check progress on mostly) - here

One thing - your tops are 0.25" thick!? That surprises me. I was thinking of going with just a little thicker than I would for an acoustic, say, around 0.125". Is there an advantage (structural or sound wise) to having a thicker top? How about the sides and back, what thickness do you recommend for those for optimal reso performance?

Can you think of any other resonator guitar newbie gotchas to warn me about while you're about it?

Thanks very much indeed Pete - your help is very much appreciated! [:Y:]

Cheers,
Dave F.
Author:  LouisianaGrey [ Thu May 15, 2008 7:30 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Any ROundneck players/builders here I have questions
Top thickness is a matter of opinion, Dave, although it seems to me that the "light top" dobro builders are in the minority. My take on it is that you need a thick top because (unlike a regular acoustic) you don't want the top to vibrate - it's the cone that makes the sound and a top that moves will take tone and volume away from it. The back and sides are the usual sort of thickness, and the usual generalisations about wood type and tone apply to those - maple tends to be bright, mahogany is warm, everything in between is pretty much the same.

I can't think of any other handy hints, although I'm sure there must be some that I've forgotten right now.
Author:  Dave Fifield [ Thu May 15, 2008 6:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Any ROundneck players/builders here I have questions
OK, thanks Pete. I'll try to keep the top as thick as I can then. It's almost 0.25" right now, but it needs sanding to get a nice surface, so it's going to come down to around 0.2". I may add some stiffning braces to compensate and keep the top real stiff.

The plans seem to suggest that the top and back are dead flat. I usually put a dome in my acoustics. Do you think it would be a good idea to dome the top and back on the reso also? It would stiffen things up nicely.

Has anyone ever played with acoustic wadding (BAF wadding) inside of a resonator guitar to keep reflections down and stop destructive interference from adversely affecting cone movement? I have designed and built many speaker systems where wadding helps smooth out the frequency response greatly. Seems to me like it might be a good thing to try in a reso guitar also?!

Thanks again for your help,
Dave F.
Author:  kfish [ Fri May 16, 2008 10:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Any ROundneck players/builders here I have questions
I've arched the back on some of mine, but never the entire top. I have put a slight angle to the top bout to get my neck angle on the roundnecks, but the area around the sound well needs to be flat so you have a good surface for the cover plate.
I use about a .25 top on mine, either birch ply or .125 solid wood reinforced with birch ply. But you have a traditional soundwell in the pics so if you are using that, your top is going to be plenty stiff. I've never used a traditional soundwell but I would think the only bracing you might need would be in the upper bout. And using that, the flat back is a lot easier and I don't know that the arched back on mine really matter. I'm just used to doing that with normal guitars so I did it there too.
I don't know that any sound dampening would be a good idea. You do get sound off the back of the cone and a lot of builders that build with an open design use baffles to alter that sound. I would think any wadding would dampen that, but it's easy enough to try, cause it could be removed later.
I've seen builders that use the traditional soundwell open up those holes, but I can't comment on the result.

On your question about using a spider bridge for a round neck, I'm a fan of the National biscuit bridge guitars, but a friend of mine has a custom Beard roundneck with a spider bridge that is killer.

Look forward to your progress pics.

Kent
Author:  LouisianaGrey [ Fri May 16, 2008 2:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Any ROundneck players/builders here I have questions
Yes, I agree with everything Kent said. I usually angle the top at the upper bout but have the cone area flat - thanks to Charles Hoffman for that idea. I usually arch the back because I like the look of it, but I use a support post design and I think a flat back is probably better with a traditional sound well.
Author:  Dave Fifield [ Fri May 16, 2008 9:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Any ROundneck players/builders here I have questions
Thanks Kent and Pete! You guys have saved me a whole bunch of trouble with your answers! I really appreciate it. 8-)

I decided that I am going to make two roundneck resonator guitars at the same time (with quite a bit of cosmetic difference between them). One for my customer (traditional looks) and one for me (more modern looks) to learn on and to show.

I will put a slight angle on the upper bout per your suggestion - seems like an eminantly good idea to help meet the neck angle! Thanks for that suggestion.

I don't see any reason I shouldn't have a domed back with a soundwell. As I see it, I either have to center the back's dome in the middle of the soundwell, or sand the bottom edge of the soundwell in my domed sanding dish (in the correct relative position) before glue up. Probably the latter. I will do a full scale drawing of the whole thing just to make sure.

I'll be sure to post pictures. I expect I'll have more questions as I get stuck into this project too duh . When I get going, I'll start my own thread! Sorry for hijacking your thread Mike [uncle]

Thanks again for all your help guys! [:Y:]

Cheers,
Dave F.
Author:  Mike Kroening [ Wed May 21, 2008 11:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Any ROundneck players/builders here I have questions
Dave Fifield wrote:
Mike,

You have gotten me all confused now.......

I am just about to start building a roundneck resonator guitar from the Beard plan. The plans show a cone and spider. Are you saying that this isn't the normal setup for a roundneck version? I hope not, cuz I just sank a whooooole lotta $$$ into the hardware for this thing.....

Can someone in the know please reassure me that I'm doing the right thing here? That is, a roundneck reso, using a cone and spider bridge, with a neck set angle of about 4 degrees (I want the action to be playable normally, but allow the player to do bottleneck occasionally - so not too low, not too high).

Thanks,
Dave F.

Dave first let me say I had no intention of confusing anyone. so heres' what happened with my build.

I made mine from the square neck plans and in midstream converted. In retrospect that was a big mistake. I agree that a sharper neck angle is needed. Somehow I calculated it to be about 2 to 2 1/2 degrees. Not enough. also I had problems with my cone location as my top was not exactly attached as planned. I missed by about 1/8th inch, this didn't help the intonation problem. SO I scrapped the project. What I have found is that ANY acoustic is more prone to errors in workmanship that cannot be adjusted in relation to the intonation. whereas an electric guitar has some variance built in and allows for this problem due to the bridge designs.

YOU should be fine, I have found though that many round necks are biscuit types as well as spider and cone and yes they do sound differently. Someday I will try the round neck again (with cone and spider), for now I'll continue the path I am on and strive harder for closer specs on my current builds.

Mike
Author:  Chris Paulick [ Tue Jul 15, 2008 7:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Any ROundneck players/builders here I have questions
As far as I see it there are two schools of thought. One builds the body as if it was a speaker cabinet to make it solid and some have been experimenting with baffles and have had interesting reasults. They want all the tone to come from the cone. The second is building it just like an acoustic and stiffing the top. I'm with this school for the most. I think the cone sound bounces off the back and that some vibrations come from the top through the ribs and vibrate the back as well from the neck. So having a loose or stiff back will have some play on tone as well as using sound post or an open well or the type of wood you use. My first build was made from a Martin OOO rosewood kit that I modified and is pictured in the avatar. I built it with a sound well and a biscuit cone. The soundwell took up enough space that no extra wood was added to the top of the lower bout and only 1/8" to the upper bout where the sound holes were cut in. I later went to a spider cone by just routing a 1/4" deep shelf around the well so the cone would be recessed, if it's not then the spiderbridge will not clear the coverplate. I also had to trim a little off the stick so the cone would clear. I like the back being free . The one thing to do is to have all the parts infront of you. Thats cone, cover plate, tail piece , screens and well and bridge and saddle too. You will want to check the measurements of this stuff to make sure it will all fit. You can put a wedge under the tongue of the fret board or leave it as fall away. You reall won't be fretting up there anyway just some slide action. Happy building.
Author:  Mike Kroening [ Thu Jul 17, 2008 3:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Any ROundneck players/builders here I have questions
Well, I have taken the plunge again!!

Here is my start on a Roundneck. Actually, I have been working on this one about 3 weeks. The neck will be a cantilever design, I will be using a biscuit cone. The Back and sides are Quilted Birdseye maple with Striped African Mahogany top, binding is black walnut and curly maple. The neck is curly maple with black walnut accent stripes and a Malagasy rosewood fretboard.

Image

Image

Thanks for looking!

Mike
Author:  Chris Paulick [ Thu Jul 17, 2008 4:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Any ROundneck players/builders here I have questions
Pretty!!!
Author:  D.L.Huskey [ Thu Jul 17, 2008 9:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Any ROundneck players/builders here I have questions
Looking good Mike!
Author:  Chris Paulick [ Thu Jul 17, 2008 9:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Any ROundneck players/builders here I have questions
Hey Mike,
Come into the metal world. Those biscuits were ment to be in Steel , Brass or the best of all German Silver bodies. [:Y:]
Author:  Mike Kroening [ Fri Jul 18, 2008 12:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Any ROundneck players/builders here I have questions
Chris Paulick wrote:
Hey Mike,
Come into the metal world. Those biscuits were ment to be in Steel , Brass or the best of all German Silver bodies. [:Y:]
Funny that you say that. I plan on using a tune-o-matic (TOM) bridge. and also the biscuit will be either steel or maple. I want the adjustability of the TOM for intonation. :)

Oh and BTW thanks for the compliments Chris and DL.
I'll post some more soon!!

I may have over stated the cantilever a bit. so Now I will have to make my own cover . :( not a problem, my real concern was intonation and placement of bridge to neck. so I'll deal with it. :) but the over all plan includes this for later evolutions of this
Mike
Author:  Chris Paulick [ Fri Jul 18, 2008 5:38 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Any ROundneck players/builders here I have questions
I don't see the need for a TOM for intonation. Maybe you are having problems because you are moving too far form standard designs that have been proven to work. Those DroBrothers didn't just slap a tricone or single cone together. John D. put a lot of time in testing different material to get the tone and sound that was the end result. I find if you turn the cone as to angle the saddle like an acoustic you can improve the intonation well enough. I don't know how a metal biscuit with a TOM placed on top will effect the tone of the cone. But that's your call and it's guitar. But I'd hate to have that pretty guitar turn into something that just looks nice. I'd experment on something else before committing to good wood. IMHO.
Author:  Mike Kroening [ Fri Jul 18, 2008 12:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Any ROundneck players/builders here I have questions
Chris Paulick wrote:
I don't see the need for a TOM for intonation. Maybe you are having problems because you are moving too far form standard designs that have been proven to work. Those DroBrothers didn't just slap a tricone or single cone together. John D. put a lot of time in testing different material to get the tone and sound that was the end result. I find if you turn the cone as to angle the saddle like an acoustic you can improve the intonation well enough. I don't know how a metal biscuit with a TOM placed on top will effect the tone of the cone. But that's your call and it's guitar. But I'd hate to have that pretty guitar turn into something that just looks nice. I'd experment on something else before committing to good wood. IMHO.
I understand what you are saying Chris, I have thought this through and have already tried the cone with the TOM on a test bed. I also agree that it may be a waste of good wood. That is one reason for the cantilever neck design (bolt on), as this will allow me to remove the neck and make another without any issues in the event it is a problem. I could in theory at that point go to a normal biscuit bridge or enlarge the cone ring and go to a spider and cone with a square neck. or any combo from there.

Hope that makes some since?

Mike
Author:  Chris Paulick [ Fri Jul 18, 2008 3:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Any ROundneck players/builders here I have questions
Mike, do you have any pictures of the neck you are talking about and it's construction. Sounds interesting. I've been toying around in my head with the idea of adapting a Doolin adjustable neck on a tricone.
Author:  Mike Kroening [ Fri Jul 18, 2008 4:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Any ROundneck players/builders here I have questions
Chris Paulick wrote:
Mike, do you have any pictures of the neck you are talking about and it's construction. Sounds interesting. I've been toying around in my head with the idea of adapting a Doolin adjustable neck on a tricone.

Hi Chris,
Here's a shot that shows what I'm doing.

Image

Hope this gives you some ideas!

Mike
Author:  Chris Paulick [ Fri Jul 18, 2008 4:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Any ROundneck players/builders here I have questions
Are you using any carbor fiber rods or bars in the cantilever?
Author:  Mike Kroening [ Fri Jul 18, 2008 5:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Any ROundneck players/builders here I have questions
Chris Paulick wrote:
Are you using any carbor fiber rods or bars in the cantilever?
I'm using an extended truss rod for an electric guitar that I custom cut to the length I want. I then rethread the end of it. It extends just past the break point. If it were longer I would not be able to get the cantilever area thin enough. It's still 1/4" at the fretboard end and won't see much pressure, so I don't see any real problems for it.

Mike
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