Official Luthiers Forum!

I came across a dirt cheap 3D Scanning setup yesterday and thought I'd share the info here and see what you all think. I am hoping it will be good enough for CNC scans of guitar parts???

DAVID-laserscanner ( http://www.david-laserscanner.com/ )
There is a free version of the software and a pro version.
There is a good forum you can access from the menu

For best results they recommend using this webcam (Logitech QuickCam Pro 9000). I got one last night for $99.00
For the line laser light you can use a cheap red one for $7.00 here:
http://www.amazon.com/650nm-Laser-Module-LINE-9X22mm/dp/B001B44KDM/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1250092985&sr=8-1
OR a better light is a green line laser $30.00 here:
http://www.amazon.com/Powerful-532Nm-Green-Generators-Module/dp/B001B483LW/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1250092190&sr=8-1

The laser light work can be done hand held, but best results would be from a reversible 1 rpm motor moving it. I ordered mine here for $25.00:
http://www.servocity.com/html/1_rpm_gear_motor.html

Hope to be scanning a neck next week.

What will I do with these images?

Hopefully my Christmas present will be to build this or another Hobby CNC setup.
(Joe's Hybrid 4x4 CNC Router ) here:
http://www.joescnc.com/index.php

The CNC machine will probably cost me $5K when done.
But my scanning setup... about $155.00

There are lots of youtube links on the David scanner like this one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uC-99bjh2dE

If you check it out, let me know what you think.

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Rick Hubka
Chemainus BC Canada

Hey Rick,

I'm not too convinced that a scanner is a necessity, especially for necks. Have you tried modeling a neck yet? What CAD software are you using?

I'm assuming that you want to scan the neck and do some modeling/surfacing to fit the point cloud. Or are you thinking you'll just go right to G-Code from the scan (some systems will do this...but it is much less controllable than doing the surfacing work and building a cad model).

Just something to think about before making the purchase...

Trev

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http://www.PeakeGuitars.com

Trev you are spot on....

Your mileage with the David scanner will vary...I know they make it sound good, and you can get some experience with scanning using it, but anything more than that, or serious scans, you are in for a VERY frustrating experience (now ask me how I know that.... ).

First, scanning a "glossy" guitar, will make the laser reflect....this will cause spikes in your scan and to the point cloud, which you would need to fix, and software to seriously do this, costs thousands! (Geomagic studio, Rapidform XOR2 etc....). People wrap guitars in plastic, use powder to coat them, and this is somewhat of a process to scan glossy objects, and scans get better, but even then, the point cloud needs serious fixing, before you can convert it to a surface that can be machined (or solid for that matter).

Second: To achieve accurate scans, you need to calibrate the laser with a background, and again, getting any sort of accuracy with it, it not an easy process.

have you looked into touching probes? With a fast cnc machine and a touch probe, you will probably get much more accurate scans (but you need to sacrifice some serious time), and will also be cheaper.

Take Trev's advise: Learn to model first, as there is no easy way or methods to cut corners when creating models and then machining them. A program like Rhino or Solidworks will yield very accurate models with some practice. Look also into a program from Luxology called Modo (currently modo 401). It is gaining a lot of popularity, and it is about 900 bucks. For what it does, it is amazing (in fact, the rendering engine, is the rendering engine in Solidworks.....).

The machine you mention is a good one: many people have build it, and it is a very good way of getting into CNC and learning the modeling and machining process....once you are comfortable and are building your first guitars, then you can move on to more serious machinery and speed!

peace....

_________________
-CyborgCNC
http://www.cncguitar.com
https://www.facebook.com/CncGuitar

Hi Trev

I'm somewhat new to all this, but my plan was to import the 3D file hopefully into the middle of one of these 2 software paths for 3D Router CNC. Hopefully this can be done where the scanned image would go right into Mastercam X4 or RhinoCam 2.0 and have paths created and output G-Code will be created for Mach3 to do the routing.

Here is the 2 software paths that I am very lucky to have access to. A good friend works at a cool graphics place, but they outsource their scanning.
Solidworks 2009 > Mastercam X4 > Mach3
OR
Rhinoceros 3D V4 > RhinoCam 2.0 > Mach3

I have a new mahogany neck (unfinished) mortise and tenon from LMI. It should scan ok.

Just called my buddy. He has Modo 401 SP1 also. Too much software. Too much to learn!

In the last 2 weeks I have been doing tutorials in Solidworks and Rhinoceros 3D. Very Cool! I'm a programmer and last year I did some programming in AutoCad 2009 using Microsoft C# but that was 2D.

Anyways, I probably have my head screwed on backwards with all this new stuff, but I will learn someday. I find the forums at http://www.cnczone.com/forums/ very useful and interesting.

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Rick Hubka
Chemainus BC Canada

I have a laser scanner, and I'll third what Trevor said. The laser scanner is, at best, only usable to make a set of points as a guide when making a model. I don't use it at all on necks, and the only time I've really 'needed' it is when I was reverse-engineering a complex carved guitar body. Even then, the point cloud was just used as a guide on which I built my surfaces. There's no shortcut, unless you have a LOT of money for a very nice laser scanner (think 15K) and the software to make those scans functional (another 15-30K).

I do all my models in Rhino, though I have access to Solidworks and other, more expensive, software. I don't think you can beat the speed of a good Rhino modeller in any other software, and I've gotten very quick at it. You can export as IGES, STEP, or any of the standard formats and use those in any of the CAM software you have access to. MasterCAM can make better toolpaths than RhinoCAM, but it's a bit harder to use, so if you have the option then I'd go Rhino -> Mastercam -> Mach3.

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Bob Garrish
Former Canonized Purveyor of Fine CNC Luthier Services

Thanks for all your input guys. I understand now that cloud points will not take me where I wanted to go.

Well... I'm only out $155.00, which Isn't too bad among my many mistakes building a guitar.

I'm going to take the advice to go... Rhino -> Mastercam -> Mach3.

So... back to my Rhino Level 1 tutorial for me.

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Rick Hubka
Chemainus BC Canada

Also, I posted a Rhino neck modeling tutorial awhile ago:

http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10106&t=13037

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http://www.PeakeGuitars.com

Maybe David Laserscanner and other software's have improved?

I had posted a question on the david-laserscanne forum titled "From David to Mach3 G-Code?"
I just got a few replies today from it http://www.david-laserscanner.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=1306

One answer of interest is from joecnc2006, The designer of The Original Joe's 06' CNC and Joe's Hybrid 4x4 CNC Router CNC. I just found out that Joe is an avid user of David Lasescanner with 189 posts.

Here's Joe's response


Never heard of nor can my buddy get Asprie Is it the same as RhinoCam and Mastercam?

Back to the Rhino tutorials for me. I really need/want to learn this tool.

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Rick Hubka
Chemainus BC Canada

Scanning a neck via laser or touch probe looks like it could be enhanced by mounting the neck on a 4th axis. That would let the probe or laser hit the surface at closer to perpendicular which I'm assuming to be a good thing.
I can see scanning a neck being useful where say you built a neck 20 years ago that has always been extra comfortable and/or playable. The old school method, and still used today, is to make a profile of the neck at a couple points along the shaft using a contour gauge or plumbers putty or whatever. That's accurate enough in most cases but probably doesn't beat a neck that's been designed & machined in CAD/CAM as far as reproducibility twenty years down the road is concerned.
Interesting thread, guys!

When I was doing this stuff full time, we combined the "old school" method with the CAD/CAM methods. We scanned whole necks (or bodies) using touch probes on the Fadals, but we paid particularly close attention to those areas that you would have gotten neck profiles from if you were manually carving the neck. You can accurately model most necks using the profile at the 1st fret, and then one more right where the heel just starts to blend into the shank. In addition, it's also usually a good idea to get a good contour of the end of the heel. This can easily be done by doing a "rubbing" using a sheet of paper and the side of a lead pencil and then scanning it in using a normal flat bed scanner. Then just import the scan into CAD and trace over it. It's actually a pretty accurate way to do it...and about as cheap as it gets...!

Trev

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http://www.PeakeGuitars.com

I am wondering what "methods" is your buddy using to get his software?

Why can't he get aspire? Last time I checked, they will sell it to anyone that is willing to send them the funds for it...

they are located here:

http://www.vectric.com/WebSite/Vectric/ ... erview.htm

Vectric makes some of the best and easiest software for machining, and they are worth a second look. Their prices are not that high, when you compare them to prices for some other packages.

_________________
-CyborgCNC
http://www.cncguitar.com
https://www.facebook.com/CncGuitar

You misspelled it in the first post, so he couldn't find it in a search.

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Bob Garrish
Former Canonized Purveyor of Fine CNC Luthier Services

http://www.inkscape.org/

Looks like inkscape might be good for converting the "rubbing" into a dxf.
I've never used it.

I think the best way to convert a scanned image into vector art is to import it directly into the CAD system and then to trace it. Rhino is great at this and Solidworks is also pretty decent. You can do it in AutoCAD as well...and probably a number of other packages.

There's a whole class of "Raster to Vector" software out there...but I think this stuff has limited use for guitar work. The output files are usually pretty crunchy looky. Modern CAD systems are good enough to where it shouldn't take too much time to actually trace something out and clean it up manually.

Trev

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http://www.PeakeGuitars.com

I have been talking to some folks elsewhere, and I have been quoted $2400 to build this machine. Why is your estimate twice as much?

Mike

look here at post #15 http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33365

I must admit this quote was for (up and running) and included $1860.00 in software so right off the hop you can cut it back to $3,140.00 for just the machine. It is also for the earlier Joe 2006 CNC which should be cheaper than the Joe's CNC 4x4 Hybrid.

I'm really new to this so.... I like your quote way better. I like your quote so much that it may save my marriage

I just bought the plans for Joe's CNC 4x4 Hybrid a few hours ago for $100. Now I'll start reading his forum (for plan owners only) and get the starter kit for $400 in a few months. I'd like to be CNC carving by Christmas.

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Rick Hubka
Chemainus BC Canada