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Visual Mill Basic or Pro?
http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10106&t=15641		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Tim McKnight [ Thu Jan 31, 2008 2:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Visual Mill Basic or Pro?
Is Visualmill (RhinoCam) "Basic" adequate for making most guitar parts on a CNC router? For example - Rosettes, FB radiusing, inlays, bridge making, profiling tops, backs, sides, etc... There is a $3K price difference between the basic and pro versions.
Author:  Rick Turner [ Thu Jan 31, 2008 4:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Visual Mill Basic or Pro?
We're running into the issues, and we want to upgrade to Pro when we get out NAMM expenses paid for. The issues are around limitations in tool paths. There are work-arounds, but...
Author:  Don Williams [ Thu Jan 31, 2008 7:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Visual Mill Basic or Pro?
Tim, what you really need to do is go sign up for a class at your local community college, and then you can buy Rhino and the CAM part for around $400. It's more than enough software than what we do. I recently purchased a product called BOBCad, which has a nice, yet simple cad/cam package with Predator built in. It's not terribly expensive, and gives you a lot of bang for the buck. The downside is you have to have just the right computer rig for it....XP Pro, no stuff running in the background to mess with it, and you have to have a video card with open gl capability compatibility. They are usually willing to work with you on price, and good deals can be had. If you want to know more, PM me and I'll tell you what I paid etc.
Author:  Bob Garrish [ Thu Jan 31, 2008 8:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Visual Mill Basic or Pro?
What they said. MadCAM is also an option, if you're willing to go the 'student price' route and it's sufficient for all your lutherie needs.

What limits are you running into, Rick? I haven't used Visual Mill in some time, but I'd like to know them for when people ask.
Author:  Tim McKnight [ Thu Jan 31, 2008 9:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Visual Mill Basic or Pro?
The basic version is 1K and the pro is 4K. I am just trying to cut as many corners as possible without painting myself into a corner. I do have two kids in college :)

Visual Mill and RhinoCam don't offer student discounts only software to colleges for classroom use.

I emailed MadCam but I have not heard from them yet.
Author:  Bob Garrish [ Fri Feb 01, 2008 1:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Visual Mill Basic or Pro?
Not quite on RhinoCAM...

RhinoCAM Pro student version is the same price as RhinoCAM Basic at regular pricing.

IE: You get Visual Mill Pro for $995.

http://www.schindler.ca/OrderForm/%20Order%20Form.htm
Sweet!
Author:  Parser [ Fri Feb 01, 2008 9:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Visual Mill Basic or Pro?
3D Carving is the most intensive use of CAM and this is where the differences between RhinoCAM Basic and other higher end packages can really appear. Long story short, RhinoCAM Basic is sufficient for a starter CAM package for luthiers.

I use RhinoCAM Basic at home and the main limitation that I have encountered is with 3D surface machining. I use a higher-end version of MasterCAM at work and have found that the pocket project surface machining option gives you very good results for doing carved top type of geometry. The best thing I can do in RhinoCAM basic to achieve similar functionality is to use a parallel finish toolpath. This works OK...but the MC pocket project method is better because you can set it up such that it follows the contours of the part. This makes it so that your edges are consistent. The parrallel finish method in RhinoCAM leaves little peaks all along the edges of the part. As long as you use a small stepover, the peaks sand out pretty easily...so it is not too much of an issue.

Here's a pic of an "arched back" right out of the machine. It's a piece of black walnut that I carve on the outside and the inside and use on flat tops for backs. You can see the tool lines from the parrallel finish path.
Image

With regard to necks, the RhinoCAM basic parrallel finish toolpath also leaves something to be desired. It does a fine job along the top part of the neck...but it does not do a good job of creating paths down along the sides of the neck carve. MasterCAM's parallel finish does a much better job of this. All the same, the RhinoCAM basic method is functional and still beats hand carving a neck by a long shot (for me anyway!).

Inlay is pretty easy with a CNC as long as your machine has adequate accuracy. RhinoCAM basic does a great job of cutting inlay & pocketing. Just keep an eye on the accuracy value that you input as it sometimes defaults to .01". .001 is the minimum I use when running inlay cuts with this package.

Here's a brook trout I inlaid with recon stone into ebony....this was all done with Rhino, RhinoCAM basic, and my K2 machine.
Image

I hope all this helps!
Author:  npalen [ Sat Feb 02, 2008 5:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Visual Mill Basic or Pro?
When you mention that MC follows the contours of the part, would this be similar to what is sometimes called "waterline" tool path?
When you mention "peaks along the edges of the part" when parallel cutting do you mean the scallops between cuts resulting from the stepover?
Author:  Parser [ Sat Feb 02, 2008 6:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Visual Mill Basic or Pro?
It would be similar to a "waterline" path. The way MasterCAM actually works is that you create a pocket toolpath for the part first. Then you project that toolpath onto the surfaces you want to cut. Since the pocket has an even stepover with respect to the X, Y axis...each path does not have a constant Z height. This seems to work out better than the waterline type of toolpath (in which each path is at a particular Z height).
Author:  Bob Garrish [ Sat Feb 02, 2008 10:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Visual Mill Basic or Pro?
Parallel can be constant X or Y step (or something in between if done at an angle, though that's only for special cases)
Waterline is a parallel toolpath along the Z axis.

Pocket is a constant X/Y distance from pass to pass but the passes aren't parallel

Scallop is constant surface distance (not necessarily planar) from pass to pass

Each type is more complex than the last, but can give a uniform finish on a more complex part.
Author:  Tim McKnight [ Sun Feb 03, 2008 8:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Visual Mill Basic or Pro?
Bob,
Can each of these tool paths be programmed in the Basic version? Or do you have to have the Pro version of the software?
Author:  Bob Garrish [ Sun Feb 03, 2008 11:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Visual Mill Basic or Pro?
As I said, it's been some time since I've used VM. It's definitely a yes on the parallel ones, a maybe on the pocket ones (for basic, I'm sure Pro must have some equivalent) and a question mark for Pro on the scallop ones (and I'd bet basic surely doesn't have scallop)
Author:  Sheldon Dingwall [ Mon Mar 03, 2008 6:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Visual Mill Basic or Pro?
Parser wrote:
It would be similar to a "waterline" path. The way MasterCAM actually works is that you create a pocket toolpath for the part first. Then you project that toolpath onto the surfaces you want to cut. Since the pocket has an even stepover with respect to the X, Y axis...each path does not have a constant Z height. This seems to work out better than the waterline type of toolpath (in which each path is at a particular Z height).


That's a cool technique, I'd have never thought of that. How much larger is the pocket than the part perimeter? I assume the diameter of the bit?
Author:  Parser [ Mon Mar 03, 2008 8:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Visual Mill Basic or Pro?
It depends on if the part is convex or concave at the edges. That's specifically a MC technique...I haven't seen those functions in other packages, but I'm sure there is something else that acts similarly.
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