Oh the horror..........
Welcome to the OLF Charles
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| classical guitar/banjo hybred http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10106&t=16722 |
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| Author: | charlesroper [ Fri Apr 04, 2008 11:08 am ] |
| Post subject: | classical guitar/banjo hybred |
I want a six string banjo. I've owned one and tried to learn to play it for a while, but gave up. I play fingerstyle on my classical guitar in a way which is suitable to me. I would like to transfer these skills, such as they are, to banjo. But all six string banjos available have a skinny 1-7/8" nut width. I have an Iida 225 banjo to which I wish to fit a guitar neck with classical guitar dimensions and scale length. I’m not particular about what kind of wood used, but would prefer using what is considered least likely to change shape with time. I’m amenable to using aluminum if it thought practical. According to my tape measurements, the neck would have to be about six inches or so longer than a standard classical guitar neck with provision for being bolted to the banjo pot instead of being glued to the upper bout of a classical guitar. The scale length on both my classical guitar and my Iida banjo are 26”. I would like to ship my banjo to who does the work and have the neck completely finished, strung, and fitted to the banjo body before it is return shipped to me. I can send a bridge, the tuners, and tailpiece along with the banjo if necessary. Failing this, I would like a quote for CNCing me the long classical guitar neck and I’ll have it fretboarded etc. If anyone can see their way through such a job, please return e-mail me a price quote and other details and questions they find relevant. If you find the Iida banjo unsuitable for this, but know of an alternative approach, please explain as I am really clueless. If you don’t do this kind of work, please refer me to someone you’re aware of who will take the job. Would appreciate any advise. Thanks,, Charles Roper |
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| Author: | JohnAbercrombie [ Fri Apr 04, 2008 1:50 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: classical guitar/banjo hybred |
Charles- Interesting project. You should probably specify your location, since there are folks from the US, UK/Europe, Canada and Australia who drop in here at the OLF. Cheers John |
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| Author: | charlesroper [ Fri Apr 04, 2008 7:14 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: classical guitar/banjo hybred |
John, I'm in Oklahoma USA, but am willing to pay shipping charges to about anywhere to get this job done. I really expect to have it done here in the US though. Lots of CNC machines here. Thanks,, Charles Roper |
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| Author: | Hesh [ Fri Apr 04, 2008 7:53 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: classical guitar/banjo hybred |
Oh the horror.......... Welcome to the OLF Charles
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| Author: | Rich Schnee [ Sat Apr 05, 2008 7:11 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: classical guitar/banjo hybred |
Why a CNC’ed neck? There are plenty of luthiers around that could make the neck in about the same time that it takes to create the numerical data. CNC is great if you want to produce several fast but for a one off neck??? 
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| Author: | charlesroper [ Sat Apr 05, 2008 11:00 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: classical guitar/banjo hybred |
Rich S What I know about making guitar necks could put in a thimble. And what I know about CNC would fit in something even smaller. I'm afraid I simply assumed all these instrument parts were CNC'd anymore. I've probably e-mailed twenty luthiers and it seems none of them want to carve a guitar neck. If you've got someone in mind who might do it, please turn me on to the contact. Thanks,,, Charles Roper |
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| Author: | JohnAbercrombie [ Sat Apr 05, 2008 1:39 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: classical guitar/banjo hybred |
Charles- What's your budget for this project? A new topic with a title like" I'll pay $2500 for you to build a banjitar neck" would get more attention. It's probably a more complicated project than you may realize, but like most problems, if you wave enough money at it, a solution will appear. Keep in mind the price of hand-made guitars these days, and realize that neck and fretwork is a good fraction of the total job, and you will not be surprised at the amount of money involved to have this neck made by a professional. Another strategy would be to contact Deering (or similar) and inquire about a 'custom shop' banjitar (6-string banjo). You would be stepping up a fair bit in quality all around if you went that route. Cheers John |
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| Author: | David Collins [ Sat Apr 05, 2008 2:22 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: classical guitar/banjo hybred |
It wouldn't be a terribly difficult project - I've certainly done stranger and made my share of custom necks. The problem is, there's an awful lot of potential for disappointment in the end results of a project like this. The dynamics of the banjo and the six string guitar are terribly different. I work on a lot of banjos, and I work on a lot of guitars, and a good share of guitar-banjos (just tuned up one last week). The problem is that it's awfully hard to get a guitar banjo to feel anything like a guitar, or sound anything like a banjo. You would have to go in to this project knowing that you be investing a lot of money on quite a gamble. The odds of the outcome meeting your odds or expectations is extremely uncertain. It may help to know a bit more about your goals. I didn't catch if you wanted to go so far as gut or nylon strings with this. Are you shooting for an end tone resembling a tenor/plectrum, or an openback/clawhammer style, or resonator bluegrass banjo, or even old time gut string banjo? Set up right you can get a reasonable plectrum or tenor sound, and do some things to resemble an openback. And sounding like a bluegrass mastertone would be a long shot with six strings, and I have no idea what to expect from a nylon 6-string. My advice - be careful when considering this investment, and if your expectations are very focused in one range of criteria you should be prepared for possible disappointment. I think you would do better to keep searching for something that already exists that you can try before you buy. |
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| Author: | charlesroper [ Sun Apr 06, 2008 8:44 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: classical guitar/banjo hybred |
Yes John, In response to your reply above David's here, I’m aware that offering extravagant bounties has powerful attention getting potential. I’ve noticed this since I was a kid visiting U.S. post offices. However, I’m not desperately seeking a lost child or trying to track down a killer here. I don’t see such an approach as practical in obtaining objects of a fairly common artistry. Thanks,, Charlie Roper |
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| Author: | David Collins [ Sun Apr 06, 2008 9:09 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: classical guitar/banjo hybred |
Actually, I wasn't suggesting you offer vast rewards - I was trying to say I think you're chasing the wind with this one and it will probably be a wast of time and money. Maybe not, maybe you'll absolutely love th instrument, but probably not - it will still just be a whole stew of compromises that will likely lack the most positive qualities of each as separate. My tip is if you want a banjo sound, take the time to learn banjo. Yes, it feels different from a wide classical neck - and a saxophone feels a bit different from a flute. If you don't want to take the time to learn the banjo, I honestly think you'll be better off getting a MIDI pickup and banjo synth program - no joke. It will be more comfortable and probably sound more like a banjo than most banjo-guitars actually do. Like I said, I work on an lot of banjos and a lot of guitars, that that's just my honest opinion about six string banjos. On a side note - this isn't a CNC related project you're looking at. Unless a builder were going to make a batch of 20 of these necks, it would be much more practical to simply cut and carve one by hand. |
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| Author: | Guest [ Sun Apr 06, 2008 10:08 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: classical guitar/banjo hybred |
David, Thanks for the time you took to explain the issues between Banjo and Guitar in what I consider a genuinely professional and helpful way. I was aware of some of them. I had to string my Iida banjo with nylon in an attempt to lower string tension and forestall complete failure of the irreplaceable planetary tuners. To my ear, the tone didn’t seem as bright with the plastic. And my six string banjo sounded even less like a real banjo even with steel strings. I passed this off as a difference in tuning and chord structure. The fact I don’t use thumb and fingerpicks dulled the banjo twang even more. But someone in the next room could still tell a banjo was being played. Something I’ve observed is that some inadequate things are quite adequate if you don’t have anything available of obvious higher quality with which to compare it contemporaneously. Hence the continuing success of lesser tenors than Pavarotti. The sound of a nylon stringed classical guitar neck banjo would probably be a dismal disappointment if heard immediately after a competent performance on a high end five string banjo. The instrument I’m envisioning would have limitations, but even the best banjo is in reality a four string instrument with severe inherent limitations. I can practice guitar for two hours at a time. The nerve shattering racket which passes as banjo music make this an impossibility for me. (I’ve known people who went about their daily business with classical guitar solos playing in the background. Can you imagine someone enduring eight hours of raw banjo solos?) I’m looking for an easy way to transition to something which is entertaining if taken in small doses. I figure will comprise about 10% of my repertoire. I’m going to give it a shot even if I have to whittle the thing out myself. Thanks again David,,, Charlie Roper |
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| Author: | David Collins [ Sun Apr 06, 2008 10:46 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: classical guitar/banjo hybred |
Knowing that you're looking for a nylon string instrument puts things in a bit of a different light. One of the big issues with steel six string is just the amount of pressure down on the head. Resonator and openback banjos typically favor lighter strings (relative to acoustic guitars anyway) and higher action, and with a more conventional guitar gauge there is simply too much pressure down on the head to allow it to resonate in any way resembling a banjo tone. Even with a low breakover angle at the bridge and using light gypsy or silk and steel strings it's difficult to mimic the true banjo sound. The brash tenor and plectrum tone can be somewhat achieved with a really tight clear head and bridge located further toward the rim than typical 5 string designs. I've heard people able to pull of some dixieland style with a six string, but not so much bluegrass. To be honest, I have little idea what could be expected of a nylon 6 string banjo though. It may be a much more realistic goal to end up with a more authentic minstrel banjo style tone than the steel 6-strings can mimic their banjo counterparts. My first though though is perhaps not to try fitting a neck to an old 11" rim, but rather find a 12" for this project. It just may work. Unfortunately I don't have anyone off the top of my head to refer you to for this project. Mike Ramsey is the first one that comes to mind, but he's fairly traditional as far as I know, and I'm not sure how open he would be to taking on a project like this. It probably wouldn't be cheap either. It may also help to search for small builders who specialize in the old Boucher, Ashborn, and Sweeney style banjos. These are traditionally fretless makers, though some will have 5 frets in metal or gut. Some of these builders may be open to custom projects like this, or even sell kit parts. Good luck! |
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| Author: | Guest [ Sun Apr 06, 2008 11:50 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: classical guitar/banjo hybred |
David, Thanks for turning on light bulbs in my head. Unless I’m misunderstanding you, I see the critical issue of bridge pressure on the head broadly adjustable as a function of tailpiece height. The greater the breakover angle, the greater the pressure, right? If I’m following you then bridge height would determine action height, then tailpiece height adjustment would determine breakover angle, hence bridge pressure on the head. If this is the case then a banjo with adjustable tailpiece height should be capable of producing any tone desired regardless of string material. Am I overlooking something? I’m becoming to believe all I need is the neck and tailpiece height adjustment. Unless I’m misunderstanding something, bridge placement on the head is determined by scale length and would not be adjustable. Am I wrong about this? Thanks again,,, Charlie Roper |
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| Author: | Dave Rector [ Tue Apr 08, 2008 10:59 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: classical guitar/banjo hybred |
Charlie, where in Oklahoma are you located? I live in Jones (just east of OKC) and would be happy to have a look at this for you. I'm not sure if I could do you any good but we might be able to figure out how to do what you want. My number is on my website @ http://www.rectorguitars.com. Give me a call if you like. |
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| Author: | charlesroper [ Tue Apr 08, 2008 6:04 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: classical guitar/banjo hybred |
Dave, I'm way on down here close to the Texas border. I've been trying to get someone to build me a guitar neck for about three months now. I've about given up on that. I took my banjo apart while ago. The way the neck is mounted to the pot inspired me and I think I've got a solution. I'll simply carve an extension of proper length from a pine 2x4, spend some time squaring it up and align it really close, and clamp it up against the bottom of a salvage classical guitar neck with some Elmer's glue. I discovered the way the neck attaches to the banjo pot is breathtakingly simple. I figure on getting to 1/8" of exact but I've got a good 3/8" of tolerance. The banjo's bridge is held in place by nothing other than string tension so scale length won't be a critical problem. I'll have to build a bridge for the wider string spacing, but I can't see that as an unsurmountable problem. And I'll have to buy a six string tailpiece off ebay. But what I figure on winding up with is something I can evaluate for cheap. If I can get the action fairly close to same as my guitar, and the scale length correct, I should be able to tell if it will do what I want it to do just as well as if Gibson built it. I'll have twelve frets till the fingerboard runs out at the 2x4 spacer. I don't have a cutaway guitar so I don't play any higher on the register anyway. If it turns out suitable, maybe I can raise the part of the fingerboard between the hole of the salvage guitar and bottom of the neck and glue it to my 2x4 just for looks. Get a little stain from Lowe's. From corresponding with these guys begging them to make me a neck, I gathered there couldn't be much to this luthiery. I'm going to find out. Thanks,, Charlie Roper |
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