Official Luthiers Forum!

I know a few on this board have Techno LC series routers. I've done a search and read everyone's initial impressions.

I'd like to hear long-term comments on the capabilities and reliability of these machines.

How are they for holding tolerances?

Are they prone to racking?

Quality of cut in hard woods?

Any reliability issues?

I'm sure Techno sells scads of routers, but there's not a whole lot of info out there on them.

Thanks in advance.

Sheldon, I have two LC series routers. Here's my honest opinion;

The accuracy is as good as you could ask for in a woodworking machine. I routinely run some programs that are 20 hours, 100,000 lines of code and have no apparent loss of positional awareness. I also run jobs where we'll do one operation to hundreds of parts over the course of a couple of weeks and then go back for a subsequent operation with no problem or change in relative position.

In terms of reliability, I have had one machine for 4 years and have gone through one encoder ($50), one THK bearing block ($95), about a dozen start/stop switches, and two frequency drives ($500/ea). I've run that machine 6 days a week, 10 hours a day, so I'm pretty happy with that level of maintenance expense. When the second frequency drive went, I invested in a better one and I don't expect to have to replace it again. The other machine has been in place for one year (almost to the day) and has had no maintenance whatsoever.

However, get ready for one of the worst customer service experiences of your life. I won't get on the soapbox too much, but suffice to say, it took me almost one year to get a receipt for my purchase BOTH TIMES.

That having been said, the fact that I signed up for another round of dealing with them says something about the machines.

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John Watkins
CNC Guitar Parts

I've done some tests of some of the mid priced cnc routers and the accuracy of some of them degraded as the speed was ramped up. Whichever one you are looking at, have them run some example code and get a good feel for the accuracy and speed that the machine is capable of before buying it.

Just my .02...!

Trev

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http://www.PeakeGuitars.com

Geometric alignments are fairly important also in any CNC machine.
The X axis needs to be perpendicular to the Y axis, for example, within a couple thou if possible.
The Z needs to be perpendicular to the XY plane by the same token.
I don't see any mention of leveling means by any of the manufacturers.
Anyone have an idea of what to expect from most tabletop size routers in this regard?
Is the structure rigid enough to not require leveling screws in each corner, for example?

My machines both have leveling screws. Everything was squared at the factory and it still took me several days to get it perfect. Best to borrow/rent a very good level and a beam; the kind that come in a Mahogany box with handcut dovetails.

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John Watkins
CNC Guitar Parts

When The Dude came up to level the Fadal, he insisted on taking his level as carry-on. After looking at the prices on some of the high-precision levels, I can understand why!

I can't comment a lot on the ownership, though I'd say that so far as guitarmaking on a Techno goes you've already heard from the world's authority. As Parser mentioned, accuracy issues due to structural weakness might not manifest themselves except at higher speeds so make sure to give any router you're considering a whirl at full speed. High-count encoders and decent ballscrews aren't that expensive these days, so the places you're going to have accuracy problems are where the encoders can't tell (ie: machine warp) and those will only show up when the machine's running at speed.

One thing I can tell you for certain is that you have to be VERY careful about the Canadian distributors for any of the router companies. I can verify that the MultiCAM guys are honest, and that the Techno guys serving Eastern Canada absolutely aren't. You might have to work around them and/or butt heads with them on their pricing to get fair prices. I've mentioned this happening before in terms of guitar parts and greedy Canadian distributors, but in this case it's a matter of thousands of dollars difference rather than tens.

(Last time I was machine shopping I priced out machines from multiple companies both from their Canadian distributor AND from a US distributor. While the MultiCAM prices from Ontario and Texas were essentially identical after accounting for exchange rates, the Canadian Techno distributor was tacking on about a 40% markup over the price from Techno in Maine!)

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Bob Garrish
Former Canonized Purveyor of Fine CNC Luthier Services

40% yikes!

Parser, would you agree that the errors you witnessed we're frame related?

I'm not looking to ram stuff through, I just want a cut clean enough that it can be cleaned up with 180 without excessive effort. And I'd like the machine to remain square.

Hi Sheldon,

I think the problems I ran into where due to controller problems. You could see where instead of running a curve as it should at high speeds, the machine would simple make a crude linear approximation of the corner. That's the best way to describe it anyhow!

When I was at PRS I ran a big cost comparison that basically boiled down to Dollars/ inch per minute. Fadal's were right at the top as were the Haas machines. Both have adequate accuracy and power. We weren't too impressed with most of the CNC routers (Northwood and Komo being the exception). If I was going to do serious production, I would probably look for a used haas or Fadal instead of a new CNC router.

I'm positive not everyone would agree, but that was the impression I was left with. On the downside, those machines are complicated enough that you'll either have to learn how to fix them or you'll have to pay the money to have them fixed!

Best,
Trev

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http://www.PeakeGuitars.com

Without getting into too much of a debate or getting off topic, I would offer this basic comparison of gantry routers to VMCs;

Let's say you had a coupon for a free Fadal or Haas and you wanted to use it for guitar parts. Here's some of what you'd need to add;

high speed spindle option - $5k
trickle server - $5k
ethernet on the machine - $750
turn on optional G-codes - $?
CAT50 holders - $200/per bit

Add to that the delivery, setup, electrical, and pneumatic requirements, and it very quickly adds up to the cost of a gantry router which doesn't require all of these things.

Yes, you have cleaner cuts with the VMC and the ATC is a great time saver, but after all that expense, you're still running less than half the IPM, less than half the spindle speed, and one quarter of the useable area.

I realize I'm in the minority with this opinion. The big guys must know something that I don't, because they all use the VMCs.

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John Watkins
CNC Guitar Parts

John, you bring up some interesting points.
I must admit that I've never been able to wrap my brain around why it takes a VMC that is designed for cutting metal to cut wood.
It just seems like overkill. The mass of the machine components is counter to high speed positioning in that the ramp-up and ramp-down times have to allow for the inertia involved. I say this knowing full well that the Fadal and Haas are what the big boys are using for making guitars.
I do, however, see an advantage in the VMC's in that they are better equipped to make fixtures and tooling out of metal.
I wonder if this isn't a major reason why they are the CNC of choice for some. (We have a number of Fadal, Haas and other CNC's in our metal shop, by the way)
It seems to me that there is a market out there for a VMC designed for light duty milling. Having said that I'm reminded that someone pointed in the direction of Haas's gantry CNC. http://www.haascnc.com/VMC_MODEL_GANTRY.asp#gantry They aren't cheap by any means starting out at about 36K.

A Fadal 4020 was number 1 on my list, but I'm negotiating a lease on a new space that's on the second floor. I'd have to reinforce the floor and use a crane to bring it in through the roof. I don't think I'm prepared for that, but we'll see.

I assume a 48" Techno would be a lot simpler to move in.

I've never used a VMC but I agree with or at least don't challenge the logic behind using one.

John:
I have none of those options, nor do any of the machines at Taylor. I feed the Fadal with a $300 computer (and before that it was a 'free' computer) and the CAT40 toolholders cost from $60-$100 except for the special ones I use for my 1" cutters. I think there are reasons to go both ways (space and spindle speed vs rigidity and possibly reliability), but I don't think the costs of a VMC are exorbitant compared to a production-class router. My next machine will probably be a fixed bridge router, as I'd like the extra spindle speed for some things, but I'm glad my first was a VMC because of the tooling I make with it.

Trevor:
They did a comparison like that at Taylor. For them it was just that no router manufacturer would guarantee them anything better than 0.005" of repeatability at speed for less than the cost of two Fadals. They have a brilliant tech crew in house, so they also have no issue with buying used machinery and rebuilding it which really skews their costs (you can get a decent used Fadal with a -4 or -5 controller in the 25K range- probably less with the economy tank).

There are advantages in having that sort of rigidity, even machining wood, but I don't think they're being realized by many of the companies using VMCs. I think there's a certain amount of momentum in that direction, due to other companies using VMCs, and there's a level of reliability they can expect from using industrial machinery that they expect. Also, though it doesn't factor in for people in our situation, I'd bet it's easier to insure VMCs in that environment since the operator is fully shielded from the work and the cutters by the enclosures.

All that said, I wouldn't recommend the purchase of a Haas or Fadal to anyone who didn't have free access to a very qualified tech. Fadal is looking like they're going to be canned by MAG (which means no tech support from them) and Haas is in pretty deep trouble right now and it's questionable if they'll make it through. I think there are a lot more people around who are capable of retrofitting or fixing up a CNC router than there are who could keep a Fadal or a Haas running (without access to Haas or Fadal)...

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Bob Garrish
Former Canonized Purveyor of Fine CNC Luthier Services

I definitely agree with all the comments regarding maintenance of the VMC's. The maintenance guy at PRS was SHARP! Those machines cranked all day every day. The code there is pretty optimized. The only way a router machine could compete in terms of accuracy was to get a high end komo or northwood machine...their table sizes were not conducive to a heavy product mix and they would not have been practical for the products we were running. Those machines ran about $250k .005" of slop would cause production problems, primarily in cutting neck pockets and potentially in other areas as well. We would never have run a machine or jigs that would be out that much unless it was a rough cut operation.

That was more or less the thought process over there at PRS.

Trev

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http://www.PeakeGuitars.com

With all respect fellas, it sounds like we've got more reading and repeating than doing and concluding here. You're effectively saying that routers like mine can't do better than +/-.005", which just isn't true.

I truly don't mean any disrespect, but everybody says their ideal choice is the Fadal 4020, but no one ever says why other than "good enough for Bob Taylor, good enough for me".

The funny thing is that in the metalworking world, people who have Mori Sieki and Mazak look down on the Fadal and Haas guys in exactly the same way guys with 4020s look down on the gantry routers.

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John Watkins
CNC Guitar Parts

I completely believe that you can hold those tolerances. In my experience though, Fadal and Haas VMC's were more suited to factory production levels. The routers we tested did not do well at the speeds/cycle times we were running in production. I started out that CNC cost comparison project with a very open mind...but in the end was convinced that Fadal was actually a really cost effective way to go based on production rates, maintenance requirements, and cost.

The extra rigidity of the Mori and Mazaak machines translates into better tolerances in metal but probably wouldn't do much for you in a woodworking environment...

Of course, the most important thing is how you use the tool...and you seem to be doing just fine!!

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http://www.PeakeGuitars.com

Having a Mazak would make my day...but I don't think it'd ever pay for itself since only about 1/5 of my work is in metal. It might be the only option in a couple years if Haas goes under, too...

The fundamental difference between a VMC and a gantry router is rigidity. I absolutely agree that you can hold better than +-0.005" under certain conditions. The trick with a router is that the tolerances get worse as the feeds and forces go up. How tight will a 30K gantry router hold tolerance pushing a 1" ball at 400IPM? With a 6-second tool change, you can always be using the right tool for the job which can shave significant time. Being able to run a 3" face mill is definitely a perk, as is having a full enclosure. Although I don't see any of the smaller guys except me and Jim Olson doing it, having all aluminum fixtures and shop tools is also pretty sweet.

All the real estate on a router is nice, and it saves a lot of moving fixtures on and off as well as allows extremely long runtimes if one elects to go that way. I would love to be able to stick four hours of work on the mill at a time and let it run rather than 'babysitting' it by having to load new parts relatively often. As well, having more than 10K RPM would be really handy in some situations and gives a lot more headroom with setting feeds and speeds.

The user is a very important factor in all of this. It's like buying a Ferrari to drive around town and pick up groceries when you can't ever drive it over 35 miles an hour. Most luthiers are building parts for themselves, most don't aspire to be fixture designers, and most don't have any need for speed beyond the machine keeping up with the speed at which they build. Like the Ferrari, sometimes it's just more fun to have a tool that exceeds ones needs, as well. Anyhow, I think a non-production-level luthier would be served just fine by getting a small but well built CNC router (at least 24"x36" with a real spindle) and running conservative feeds and speeds. The capacity of my machine to spit out parts is at least ten times my capacity to assemble guitars...and I'm fast...so if that's what I had it for then I'd have overspent!

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Bob Garrish
Former Canonized Purveyor of Fine CNC Luthier Services

Interesting discussion.
I agree with everyone on the rigidity issue. In the mid 90's I had both a Fadal 4020 and a Komo 804tt ( a very spendy, twin table 4 headed monster). The komo also required a 25 hp vacuum pump. The machines are definitely different animals and meant for different things.
The Fadal was way easy to use for one off parts and cutting molds, while the Komo was a pain for one offs and impractical for molds, but it rocked on production parts when using a dedicated spoil board. It was very accurate, within .0001's and capable of feed rates of over 1000 ipm. A high speed machining option on the controller would adjust the feed rate where necessary to hold the tolerance (based on the mass of the machine, current feed rate and the upcoming direction vector).

If I had to choose one of the types of machine over the other it would be the Fadal for low volume work due to it's ease of use and versatility.
Bob Taylor choose very wisely I think, as he could buy 4 or 5 Fadal's for the cost of one machine like the Komo.

I think for the dollar however, it's hard to go wrong with some of the low cost routers available today. There's some real junk out there also so beware.
BTW - I know nothing about Techno

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Jim Watts
http://jameswattsguitars.com

Some of you may be familiar with the Burgmaster Turret Drills that are all but extinct.
I've wondered if this type of machine configuration would work for a gantry router.
It's basically six or eight spindles arranged in a turret mounted vertically on the Z-axis.
The turret indexes to the tool station which is engaged to rotate only when facing the table.
They had limited milling capability because of rigidity as well as the helical bevel gears driving each spindle.
These gears were mounted inside the turret which limited their size and torque capability.
For machining wood, however, it looks like this arrangement would be practical in a lower cost CNC gantry.

Thermwood used to use turret ATCs. Pics here: http://images.google.ca/images?&q=thermwood+turret

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Bob Garrish
Former Canonized Purveyor of Fine CNC Luthier Services

John,

I did a search, but can't find it anywhere. How did you get your machine into your shop? Do you have an overhead door, or did you bring the machine in sections? Is that even practical?

Thanks.

The first one was completely disassembled and brought into my basement one piece at a time. The smallest part of the frame took everything that five of us had to get down there. It was like carrying two pianos. Had to be close to a thousand pounds.

With the second one I did have an overhead door and I just brought it in with a forklift and set it down. Still a little tricky because it's 11' long and you have to pick it up from the end.

I recommend the second way.

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John Watkins
CNC Guitar Parts

What size is the first machine?

The table's footprint is about 4' x 7'. Travel is about 5' in both directions. The bridge is a little over 6' wide.

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John Watkins
CNC Guitar Parts

I have a TECHNO-ISEL router and have been happy with it so far. This was one of their older machines that I bought used and had to retrofit it with a new Gecko controller. It came with a 3hp router for the spindle and I have made and used several smaller routers and spindles with it. It is a VERY solid machine.

The folks at TECHNO are not the best int he world when it comes to support. They seem really interested in selling new machines, but have no interest in helping with older machines. This didnt really slow me down though and as soon as I got the new controller working all was well.

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Reguards,

Ken H

I've had several conversations via email with a fellow by the name of Charlie Bible at Techno. He has been very helpful answering a number of questions.
Speaking of questions, I was wondering what you guys can tell me about the heavy router spindles such as Columbo.
I would like to step up to this type after running the Bosch 1617EVS routers for several years listening to noise and replacing bearings.
Is it possible to slow these spindles down to about the 8K to 10K RPM range and reduce cutting noise?
Running a 3/4" dia. ball nose and roughing out maple, for example,does heat become a problem running at the lower RPM?
It would be more like cutting wood on a vertical mill where the RPM is very much slower as is the noise.
I realize it takes some rigidity to run at lower RPM.
Nelson