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| What do you think of this machine? http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10106&t=25263 |
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| Author: | Mitch Cain [ Fri Jan 01, 2010 10:22 am ] |
| Post subject: | What do you think of this machine? |
http://www.legacycncwoodworking.com/demo-videos/ |
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| Author: | Hesh [ Fri Jan 01, 2010 10:45 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: What do you think of this machine? |
Hey Mitch!  It's a great looking machine and the small foot print should be attractive to some folks as well. Hey I'm not buying one but if you are here is an idea that you can use in the naming contest and hopefully you will win and get $1K off. How about calling it the "Apprentice?"  I know it can't sweep floors and take out the trash but with today's 64 bit operating systems you never know.... Happy New Year to you and your family my friend. |
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| Author: | Mitch Cain [ Fri Jan 01, 2010 11:03 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: What do you think of this machine? |
That's so funny! I already submitted that name! yesterday! along with about 6 others... |
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| Author: | Mattia Valente [ Fri Jan 01, 2010 11:58 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: What do you think of this machine? |
Looks pretty good (except I'd prefer leadscrew/ballscrews over rack and pinon), but do you need the fourth axis? (and I don't see the fifth in that particular video example) |
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| Author: | Mitch Cain [ Fri Jan 01, 2010 12:20 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: What do you think of this machine? |
Probably not for guitar work, but I have other woodworking projects where it would be very useful. I used to have the manual version of this machine, called the Ornamental Mill, and have made some really interesting tables and spindle work. Their early versions of CNC had some warts, but they have done a good job of addressing the design concerns over the last couple years. Only 15 people in the company, and they have a reputation of being slow on the customer service front, but they do eventually address their problems. I'm looking forward to seeing what the pricing and final specs come in at... |
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| Author: | Bob Garrish [ Fri Jan 01, 2010 1:48 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: What do you think of this machine? |
Mattia Valente wrote: Looks pretty good (except I'd prefer leadscrew/ballscrews over rack and pinon), but do you need the fourth axis? (and I don't see the fifth in that particular video example) That's because it isn't a five axis machine. The knuckleheads are counting the spindle (C-axis) as an axis. If you can't get past the NAME of the product without encountering a lie (or, at the very least, extreme deception) then I don't think it's worth dealing with the company behind it. Just to CMA in case anyone thinks I'm being harsh: in the video where they're carving a spindle they say that it's only possible to do that on a 5-axis machine...it's standard 4-axis work. They're looking to scoop a few gullible shops that won't know the difference until it's too late. This reminds me of the companies claiming 0.0005" repeatability on machines with C10 ballscrews, except much worse. |
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| Author: | npalen [ Fri Jan 01, 2010 2:58 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: What do you think of this machine? |
Without saying anything good or bad about the company, Looks like you could mount a neck fixture between centers and do a whole lot of whittlin'. Have the fretboard glued on and do the radius and fret slots, heck I don't know. |
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| Author: | cyborgcnc [ Fri Jan 01, 2010 4:10 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: What do you think of this machine? |
I am amazed by how folks make some of these machines sound...like they are able to accomplish remarkable feats and how sturdy they are.... Like Bob said, calling it 5 axis with a simple 4 axis setup is also kind of comical.... I have said it here before, but I am a firm believer that many of the folks here, with the incredible skills they have to create some of the instruments on display here, are more than capable of putting a machine like this together, and make it much better and cheaper.... I know it might sound like an impossible feat, but something like this can easily be made with extruded aluminum and Ebay parts for a fraction of the cost... I also think like others stated here, that rack and pinion is not the way to go....Ball Screw is much better overall, and again, there can be some bargains to be found on Ebay....If you look at some rack and pinion machines, they go the extra mile to compensate for backlash (like spring loading the set up), something which can be avoided with a good quality ballscrew (like from rockford, THK, etc). I recently saw a posting, for 6 total linear rails, 2 for the x, two for y, and 2 for the z, INCLUDING all the cars, BRAND name, for under 700 bucks, as an example... My humble .02...... Happy New Year to ALL! |
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| Author: | Jim Watts [ Sun Jan 03, 2010 6:58 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: What do you think of this machine? |
Bob Garrish wrote: Mattia Valente wrote: Looks pretty good (except I'd prefer leadscrew/ballscrews over rack and pinon), but do you need the fourth axis? (and I don't see the fifth in that particular video example) That's because it isn't a five axis machine. The knuckleheads are counting the spindle (C-axis) as an axis. If you can't get past the NAME of the product without encountering a lie (or, at the very least, extreme deception) then I don't think it's worth dealing with the company behind it. Just to CMA in case anyone thinks I'm being harsh: in the video where they're carving a spindle they say that it's only possible to do that on a 5-axis machine...it's standard 4-axis work. They're looking to scoop a few gullible shops that won't know the difference until it's too late. This reminds me of the companies claiming 0.0005" repeatability on machines with C10 ballscrews, except much worse. Bob hit the nail on the head. If the company considers the spindle an "axis" then they are either very ignorant or very deceptive and they don't deserve your business, especially if they're deceptive. Ignorance can be forgiven assuming they can be educated. I've done a lot 5 axis work in the past and can only think of a few instances where the part wouldn't be doable with a three axis machine. The are time savers however and you can get better finishes. Not all 4/5 axis machines are full contouring machines, many are only indexing axes. These would be great for necks BTW as Nelson pointed out. Please be aware also that programming systems for 4/5 axis machines are more expensive than 3 axis systems. And don't forget a post processor for a 5 axis machine, they're not really very pretty when trying to get the bugs worked out of them as the machine works off of a pivot point in conjunction with the tool tip. |
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| Author: | Mike Kroening [ Mon Jan 04, 2010 12:08 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: What do you think of this machine? |
Honestly I think, since I just built my own 3 axis, (for less that 2K which is great ) I would rather spend my extra $ making my wood lathe a 2 axis machine. I can then do the spindles and such as well as use my 3 ax at the same time for other uses. If I only need to do 4 axis work, as this seems to be, I'll use slicing for flat goods and get the somewhat 3d effect, I figure I have enough woodworking experience to join the pieces and make them look right..Also being an OPEN Frame design is not appealing to me as well. Sawdust will get into the linear bearings, period. I am fighting this with the design I have, and mine is closed somewhat. I need to make deflectors just to minimize this problem, even with dust collection. So even being a noobie at this I see problems that I would not want to deal with. Just my take on this. MK |
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| Author: | Sheldon Dingwall [ Mon Jan 04, 2010 1:16 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: What do you think of this machine? |
I was scratching my head about the 5th axis too, but at the end of the video there's a quick shot of the table where it looks like it's tilting to do a tapered column. |
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| Author: | Mattia Valente [ Mon Jan 04, 2010 1:45 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: What do you think of this machine? |
Sheldon Dingwall wrote: I was scratching my head about the 5th axis too, but at the end of the video there's a quick shot of the table where it looks like it's tilting to do a tapered column. ...so in Z, you mean. A direction already covered by another axis. |
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| Author: | Mitch Cain [ Mon Jan 04, 2010 5:05 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: What do you think of this machine? |
So - after these posts I did a little research on Joe's Hybrid 4X4 DIY CNC - Looks like you can build a 3 axis machine ofr about $1500 or less.. How would you modify that to put the lathe spindle on to do the kind of work you see in these Legacy videos on legs and such? |
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| Author: | BobK [ Mon Jan 04, 2010 9:29 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: What do you think of this machine? |
I built a Joe's Hybrid and am very happy with it. Not a pro grade machine, but very functional and much cheaper. Your $1500 estimate seems light. Most guys say a basic build winds up over 2k. You'll probably want to go with some upgrades like hardened rails and precision acme screws with will add another ~$500 or so to your build. Mine wound up being closer to 3k, but that included those upgrades and a PC and some good but basic software, etc. Here's a link to someone who built a very nice rotary axis for his hybrid and also coded a bunch of mach wizards which are very cool, but not really applicable to guitar building. http://www.wizardsbyrich.embarqspace.com/#/diy-rotary-axis/4535416041 Bob |
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| Author: | turmite [ Mon Jan 04, 2010 9:43 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: What do you think of this machine? |
Ok, I have the 5 axis figured out. I only copied one image link, but if you will count you will find the following. Z axis = 1 motor X axis = 1 motor A axis = 1 motor Y axis = 2 motors I don't really know if it is the x or y that has the two motors, but they are counting motors as axis'. Mike edit....the image link did not copy over and show. Look under products and you can look at the different images of arty and see the 5 motors |
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| Author: | Mike Kroening [ Tue Jan 05, 2010 12:51 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: What do you think of this machine? |
turmite wrote: Ok, I have the 5 axis figured out. I only copied one image link, but if you will count you will find the following. So they slaved one?
Z axis = 1 motor X axis = 1 motor A axis = 1 motor Y axis = 2 motors I don't really know if it is the x or y that has the two motors, but they are counting motors as axis'. Mike edit....the image link did not copy over and show. Look under products and you can look at the different images of arty and see the 5 motors |
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| Author: | turmite [ Tue Jan 05, 2010 1:33 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: What do you think of this machine? |
They slaved one and call it an extra axis. Remember when doing that in Mach 3 it is considered a seperate axis though slaved to the same motion. Mike |
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| Author: | Sheldon Dingwall [ Tue Jan 05, 2010 7:53 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: What do you think of this machine? |
Mattia Valente wrote: Sheldon Dingwall wrote: I was scratching my head about the 5th axis too, but at the end of the video there's a quick shot of the table where it looks like it's tilting to do a tapered column. ...so in Z, you mean. A direction already covered by another axis. Sorry, wrong video. This was the one I was watching. http://www.legacycncwoodworking.com/ The tilting table happens at about 6:00. |
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| Author: | Bob Garrish [ Tue Jan 05, 2010 9:33 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: What do you think of this machine? |
Sheldon Dingwall wrote: I was scratching my head about the 5th axis too, but at the end of the video there's a quick shot of the table where it looks like it's tilting to do a tapered column. ... The tilting table happens at about 6:00. Truth. They DO have a limited 5th axis. It looks like it's got a very small range of motion (<10 degrees) and might be only for positioning, but it does open up the doors for some parts that aren't doable on four axes. The '5th axis' is also manual in the stock offering: you need to pay extra for a motorized 5th (B) axis. That said, it doesn't look like a bad machine depending on the pricing. You might be paying a big premium for their control software (they market heavily to the 'computers are scary' crowd) and the B axis is of limited use outside of spindles, but it seems to be taking decent cuts in the videos so if the price is right? |
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| Author: | Mitch Cain [ Thu Jan 07, 2010 1:17 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: What do you think of this machine? |
So here's the rest of the story - got this email today - based on what I've seen since I started this thread, I'll get the Joe's Hybrid CNC plan and build my own... The Arty is going to cost 8,695.00. but for everyone that pre-orders this week it has an introductory price of 7,995.00. Here are the additional optional accessories: Arty Floor stand 500.00 This option is free on orders placed before the 15th of Jan. Smart Tool 600.00 Now here is an option that you will never see in a catalog. We also have a frame that we will build custom for you if you want it. For an additional 1,250.00 you can extend the Arty to 56 inches. Now that you have the pricing, here is the particulars of this offer. I have to order the precision ground linear bearings from New Jersey. They take 3 weeks to make them and one week of freight time. On Friday the 8th of January Legacy will place the first order for the Arty rails. As of this morning there are 4 frames on order and so there will be 4 linear bearing sets ordered. If you would like to be in this group please call me and place your order. To recap the frame is 36 inches long, and can be 56 inches long with the longer frame. Orders places this week will likely ship the first week in February. Being part of this initial group will save you 700.00 It will also get you access to the advanced training for one year usually priced at 500.00 free. |
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| Author: | Rick Hubka [ Fri Jan 08, 2010 2:35 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: What do you think of this machine? |
Hi Mitch I have the Hybrid MDF and HDPE Kit for sale. I'm building Joe's 4 x 4 Hybrid CNC also. So far I have the plans, the kit and a G540(4 axis step motor system) The kit is new (sitting in a box for 2 months) complete kit (the Hybrid MDF and HDPE Kit) on the right of this page http://www.joescnc.com/kitsplans.php. I paid $435.00 for it and am selling it for $300 (shipping included to U.S or Canada). I am selling it because one of the members on Joe's CNC forum is machining me a new modified kit for using a different drive system. Let me know if you want it. |
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| Author: | Fred Tellier [ Fri Jan 08, 2010 3:09 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: What do you think of this machine? |
What drive system does the kit you are selling use and where is it available. Fred |
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| Author: | Rick Hubka [ Fri Jan 08, 2010 5:32 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: What do you think of this machine? |
Fred Tellier wrote: What drive system does the kit you are selling use and where is it available. Fred I am selling the Lead Screw drive system kit which is the standard drive that 95% of the Joe's 4 x 4 Hybrid CNC are using. I'm on Vancouver Island in BC (Western Canada). The reason I am selling my Lead Screw kit is I now want to try an experimental Rack & Pinion drive that a few people have tried. There is no available kit for this rack & pinion drive. However one the fellows who has already built a Lead Screw machine is machining a kit for me at a cost$. I am a sucker for trying new things. Sometimes I get burnt doing it but I just can't resist trying something new and different. |
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| Author: | Mike Kroening [ Sat Jan 09, 2010 2:05 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: What do you think of this machine? |
Have fun with the backlash issues in the R&P. Those that I know that have tired them are not satisfied with them because of that problem. Yes they may give you more IPM in Rapids but is loss of precision due to backlash worth the speed? Why is it most BiG name Expensive CNC Machines use a precision ballscrew. I wonder? I thought as you do, but realized most bits are no better at 150+IPM than 105 IPM. So getting 300+IPM with Backlash does nothing for you. I'M sure CNCyborg will chime in on this and chastise me but, my findings are what I see locally. As well as what I have tried for speed and precision. I do now get over 200IPM rapids, and cutting speeds over 100+ IPM due to Ball screws and resonace dampers. I can now push well over 400IPM on the Rapids ( I have seen just last night in tests, rapids in the 688+IPM with a new set of dampers that I am testing that I machined), but Cutting is still around 100 IPM to 130IPM as the bits will not handle much more. So at what price is speed vs precision? I am finding it is not worth it. I would rather have the precision. As Parser(Trev) said to me in an earlier thread, even if it takes 2 hrs for the CNC to do what you can do in 1 hr. Then that gives me 2 hrs for something else to do. MIke Mike |
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| Author: | cyborgcnc [ Sat Jan 09, 2010 9:05 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: What do you think of this machine? |
Mike,ouTou are spot on with the r&p argument, nothing more I can really add. R&P systems are faster in rapids but look at some machines using them and you will see elaborate contraptions with springs etc to help eliminate the backlah issues. Not worth the complexity and I agree with mike 100% on the cutting speeds as well. I am getting 420ipm+ rapids on my new machine, and I have exceeded the pulsing capabilities of the computer I am using (with small step resolution). For guitar making that is pretty dang fast..... So KISS is the way to go and one can never go wrong with good quality ballscrews.... You are a wise man mike....
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