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Well, mmmmm, my cnc is bigger than yours....(yawning).....No really, if I had a piece of material 48"X60" by 1.75", I could cut 16 tele bodies or anything about the same size in one program per side.....(can't...hold...eyes....open)...

CNC made objects lack soul and vibe

turmite wrote:

....after my nap we'll talk repeatabilty specs...you know....accuracy?

.....and then you'll finally understand.

Like Stuart said Mike. It doesn't matter how big it is if you can't use it well
Chris

How does one measure "soul" in a CAD/CAM product, or even any kind of wood product? It's purely a matter of perception.

He's not actually opposed to using cnc for some things on his product.

Mike, I apologize if what I posted was offensive to you, but in all honesty, I think the replies and the jesting that has taken place in this thread answers your question. Bored! I know I have been watching the cnc forum faithfully to see if anyone posts anything new, and I check it at least twice a day. My situation has not allowed me to do much cnc work but I did join in the Challenge Build here by Wudwerker with the intent of doing everything I could with cnc, and documenting all of it with lots of photos.

I really thing all this was in fun.

Mike

Author:	Mike Kroening [ Fri Jan 27, 2012 9:30 pm ]
Post subject:	Yawn!!!
Everyone must be busy or bored? Me, I'm busy with boring crap. MK

Author:	npalen [ Sat Jan 28, 2012 10:42 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Yawn!!!
Need to get a good argument going here. My cnc is better than yours.

Author:	Don Williams [ Sun Jan 29, 2012 9:42 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Yawn!!!
Oh I like mine the best. I'm sure yours is just fine, but mine is in a much more convenient location to use.

Author:	npalen [ Sun Jan 29, 2012 10:42 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Yawn!!!
So, Don, you're saying that Rhode Island is better than Kansas? Them's fightin' words!

Author:	Don Williams [ Sun Jan 29, 2012 11:57 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Yawn!!!
Nelson, while I'm certain that Kansas is a wonderful place, it's just a little far for me to have a favorite cnc there. Living in Rhode Island (and not by choice, I might add) allows me limited choices for favoritism of cnc's. Yours is just geographically undesirable for me... Chris, I'm sure that if my cnc were a betting cnc, it would challenge you to a contest you could not possibly win, but we'll just let you live in your delusion for as long as you want.......uncontested!

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Yawn!!! http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10106&t=35151	Page 1 of 1

Author:	turmite [ Mon Jan 30, 2012 12:52 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Yawn!!!
Well, mmmmm, my cnc is bigger than yours! In fact, my cnc is probably bigger than all of yours combined! No really, if I had a piece of material 48"X60" by 1.75", I could cut 16 tele bodies or anything about the same size in one program per side. One program for the front, one for the back, and 16 guitar bodies! Does anyone have a piece of 1.75 thick hog that measures 48X60 inches? uh....Chris, I had to edit this to include you because I just now read about how good your hands are. Reallllllly....just send me that piece of hog I gave the dims for, and you use one for yourself and we will just see who can cut those 16 bodies fastest! Mike

Author:	Stuart Gort [ Mon Jan 30, 2012 3:04 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Yawn!!!
turmite wrote: Well, mmmmm, my cnc is bigger than yours....(yawning).....No really, if I had a piece of material 48"X60" by 1.75", I could cut 16 tele bodies or anything about the same size in one program per side.....(can't...hold...eyes....open)... ....after my nap we'll talk repeatabilty specs...you know....accuracy? .....and then you'll finally understand.

Author:	Arnt Rian [ Mon Jan 30, 2012 9:42 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Yawn!!!
Sleepy, eh? Ok... CNC is all about for moving the craft away from "the workmanship of risk" over to "the workmanship of certainty", replacing truly hand made objects with lifeless, cookie cutter ones CNC made objects lack soul and vibe CNC offers no interaction between the craftsman and the material, which is one reason for the above CNC is just pushing buttons, everyone knows real craftsmen work with hand guided tools Anyone selling instruments with CNC'd parts, should tell their customers that they are not getting a truly hand made instrument. Ducking and running...

Author:	Andy Birko [ Mon Jan 30, 2012 9:55 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Yawn!!!
Arnt Rian wrote: CNC made objects lack soul and vibe That may have been true of some of the earlier cam packages but the new ones have direct parametric control over "soul and vibe'. In fact, just running solidworks on my Mac instead of a native windows box has added a detectable "soul" quotient to my CAD & CAM work.

Author:	turmite [ Mon Jan 30, 2012 10:08 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Yawn!!!
Zlurgh wrote: turmite wrote: Well, mmmmm, my cnc is bigger than yours....(yawning).....No really, if I had a piece of material 48"X60" by 1.75", I could cut 16 tele bodies or anything about the same size in one program per side.....(can't...hold...eyes....open)... ....after my nap we'll talk repeatabilty specs...you know....accuracy? .....and then you'll finally understand. Now Stuart, you had to go pull that out of the bag didn't you? When you wake up from your nap, I will concede the accuracy.....but mine is still bigger! On another note, did you ever get the uv finishing to work like you wanted? I have not turned my system on yet and am considering selling it. Your input might help me make a decision. Quote: Like Stuart said Mike. It doesn't matter how big it is if you can't use it well Chris I refuse to take the bait....I will not take the bait.....step away from the bait! Mike

Author:	turmite [ Mon Jan 30, 2012 10:18 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Yawn!!!
Arnt, You listen to this and tell me if your chisels, planes, etc can make music? This is soul....I mean to make a musical instrument with a tool that makes music...really, it doesn't get any better than that. BTW, do you use any electric tools? If so, the old masters would have thought the same thing about you, or they would have embraced the newfangled technology as a means to help them better produce their instruments. A violin top can be rough carved by cnc in a short fraction of the time it would take to do it by hand, yet the maker can then use his hands and tools to fine tune the top just like the old masters did. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kh2AWswAMvw http://www.youtube.com/embed/a2deKUgGklE Making music my friend, that is what it is all about. Its just that some can do it with their tool....err machine! Mike

Author:	Stuart Gort [ Mon Jan 30, 2012 12:27 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Yawn!!!
Arnt is selling mysticism. Arnt's customers buy into his version of it. Arnt's saleable commodity is an intangible spirit residing somewhere between his brain and his product. He wants me to think it resides in his hands though it could be halfway up his elbows....not sure. It just doesn't sound the same saying "old world, elbowmade guitars". In the rational world, craftsmanship ought to be defined as an ability to OBSERVE minute issues and the RESIGNATION to address these issues THOROUGHLY. Craftsmanship is in the heart. It's an aspect of character. To place it elsewhere is an offense to me and a diminishment of your own character. It's not your hands that contain your integrity, Arnt. It's your heart. Cnc machines are an intrinsic part of your life, Arnt. Without them you'd have to carve guitars out of obsidian shards.....that were within walking distance of your hut. Judge the final result.....the guitar....or the world of luthrie will continue to harbor this ridiculous religion...complete with self appointed priests. "Soul and vibe"....my butt. Unless you expect your guitars to play themselves....your job is to make an accurate instrument that looks and sounds good...and is easy for an ARTIST to play. If John Mayer somehow couldn't play the blues on my "soulless" cnc made guitar....only then would you actually have a point. But I'd bet John would fall in love with mine...and he'd not want to put it down...if I could only figure out how to get one in his hands. As it is...he doesn't seem to have any trouble at all wringing an endless river of "soul" from his Fenders. Peace

Author:	Don Williams [ Mon Jan 30, 2012 1:22 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Yawn!!!
Arnt is just poking fun for the sake of stirring things up in the spirit of fun. He's not actually opposed to using cnc for some things on his product. That said, his stuff is so good, it could have been made by a machine. How does one measure "soul" in a CAD/CAM product, or even any kind of wood product? It's purely a matter of perception.

Author:	Andy Birko [ Mon Jan 30, 2012 1:37 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Yawn!!!
Don Williams wrote: How does one measure "soul" in a CAD/CAM product, or even any kind of wood product? It's purely a matter of perception. In SolidWorks - click on the evaluate tab the click the measure tool. About the middle of the dialogue box there's a checkbox for "soul" - make sure it's checked and click on the feature who's soul you have to measure. If you need more soul, simply click on insert>feature>intangible>soul and click where exactly you need a little more soul. Apparently they have similar features in Rhino for less money but it's not parametric.

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Author:	Arnt Rian [ Mon Jan 30, 2012 1:50 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Yawn!!!
Well, I woke you up, didn't I? Actually, I've seen folks claim most of those things in some of the "heated" debates about cnc vs hand made over the years. I find it sort of amusing how some things never fail to make a big ruckus in these debates, and seeing how things were kind of sleepy over here... well, I guess I couldn't help myself. Sorry about my warped sense of "humor"...

Author:	Stuart Gort [ Mon Jan 30, 2012 3:39 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Yawn!!!
It might be worth noting that I don't need to defend myself....I just enjoy it. "As it is...he (John Mayer) doesn't seem to have any trouble at all wringing an endless river of "soul" from his Fenders." C'mon, man.....that was good.

Author:	Stuart Gort [ Mon Jan 30, 2012 3:53 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Yawn!!!
Don Williams wrote: He's not actually opposed to using cnc for some things on his product. How will I KNOW that unless he personally goes to the Electric Guitar forum and bumps my thread?

Author:	Mike Kroening [ Mon Jan 30, 2012 9:23 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Yawn!!!
Funny how my thread has been hijacked into this friggin stupid debate over cnc vs only hand built. I'm sorry I started this. LANCE CAN YOU PLEASE DELETE THIS CRAP!!!!! PLEASE?????????? BORED or BUSY? That was the question. Now I will end my tyrate and discontinue in my attempt to contribute to this. Good bye all, Mike

Author:	turmite [ Mon Jan 30, 2012 10:13 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Yawn!!!
Mike, I apologize if what I posted was offensive to you, but in all honesty, I think the replies and the jesting that has taken place in this thread answers your question. Bored! I know I have been watching the cnc forum faithfully to see if anyone posts anything new, and I check it at least twice a day. My situation has not allowed me to do much cnc work but I did join in the Challenge Build here by Wudwerker with the intent of doing everything I could with cnc, and documenting all of it with lots of photos. I really thing all this was in fun. Mike

Author:	Mike Kroening [ Mon Jan 30, 2012 10:39 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Yawn!!!
turmite wrote: Mike, I apologize if what I posted was offensive to you, but in all honesty, I think the replies and the jesting that has taken place in this thread answers your question. Bored! I know I have been watching the cnc forum faithfully to see if anyone posts anything new, and I check it at least twice a day. My situation has not allowed me to do much cnc work but I did join in the Challenge Build here by Wudwerker with the intent of doing everything I could with cnc, and documenting all of it with lots of photos. I really thing all this was in fun. Mike Mike you have never offended me. I'm just making a point. Everyone is friggin BORED as hell, nothing going on, and everyone has their head placed somewhere where it shouldn't be. I'm trying to make light of the down times. I have stuff to do but it is BS work, not really worth the time. . So continue on about the debate. BTW my machine will do what I tell it to do for hours on end, as well as be accurate to boot, so no complaints from me for having a cnc to do chores. I can sit back and drink scotch. does that make me AA potential? I gotta pull some chains when I can. Mike

Author:	Don Williams [ Tue Jan 31, 2012 7:23 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Yawn!!!
Mike, I agree....we're all having fun with this because we're bored. But busy too! This has brought me a few much-needed laughs, so I'm glad for the direction it went, but sorry if it offended you! Andy...I wish my CAD/CAM program had that button! I'm jealous! Zlurgh...dude, that was funny stuff. I gotta go bump your thread.

Author:	Stuart Gort [ Mon Mar 05, 2012 12:24 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Yawn!!!
Bored or busy? Not bored. Busy.