Official Luthiers Forum!

If I don't have $10,000 for software, is there anything besides Solidworks that I can use to design stuff with?

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Old growth, shmold growth!

Rhino 3d works well. Vectric has several products that work well for guitars (Aspire, Cut3d, Cut2D, etc). Aspire is a great program and will generate gcode directly without a separate CAM program. I purchased Rhino and a cam program for it but find myself using Aspire most of the time ( most of what i do is 2d or 2.5d so i don't really need all he complexity of a real 3d modeling program.)

Kewl!
What sorts of projects have you done?

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Old growth, shmold growth!

Look into BOBCad. You can usually get it for well under $1K, and it can do most everything a guitar builder needs, including generating the G-code.

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

Nice!

So, is it like the other programs where you can start from nothing and design a 3D model, and then generate the tool paths?

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Old growth, shmold growth!

STAY AWAY from Bob CAD!!

IMHO, That is the worst piece of software ever written! I know some might say that hey, "it works for what I do", but believe you me, you will get frustrated using it....

Again, this is MY (and many others) opinion.....but do some research, and see what people are saying..

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-CyborgCNC
http://www.cncguitar.com
https://www.facebook.com/CncGuitar

I have to agree with Cyborg on BobCAD. I've never seen someone who uses or has used any other piece of CAD software recommend it. It's like how your first girlfriend is the best looking girl you've ever been with . It's also about the only piece of CAD software where your skills won't transfer to any other software.

My recommendations, in order of price and utility:
Solidworks is great, but totally unnecessary for any CAD that doesn't need moving assemblies.
Rhino is the most powerful and fastest surface modeling program there is.
Moi3D is like Rhino Lite- it's much cheaper, includes most of the functionality, and they're file format compatible. It's coded by one of the original Rhino developers.

I've got thousands of hours in Rhino and Solidworks, and I've tested Moi3D and been impressed. If you value your time, even at minimum wage, then I don't think anything compares to Moi and Rhino for value in 3D CAD- even things that are free. You're better off working twenty extra hours and getting a program that'll never get in your way than spending eighty extra hours fighting a bad tool.

The difference between Moi and Rhino is a 'need' thing, so if you don't need the extra tools then Rhino is 50% more value at triple the price.

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Bob Garrish
Former Canonized Purveyor of Fine CNC Luthier Services

..EXACTLY!! Bob hit the nail on the head!

Yes, I know Solidworks is not cheap, but a student 1 year license costs about 100 dollars....and I have to admit, assemblies are really what set the application apart, especially when it comes to visualizing what the end product will look like, and how well the parts will fit together....



..and then when it comes to rendering, the sky is the limit!

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-CyborgCNC
http://www.cncguitar.com
https://www.facebook.com/CncGuitar

Oh yeah, Solidworks looks like the total bomb.

I appreciate the feedback, guys!

I'm looking a t Rhino.

Frankly, the sites aren't super informative for as much info as they contain, or I don't know what the hey I'm looking at (which is more likely ).

I'm trying to find where it says in Rhino that it generates G-code or something.

Or do I need to buy a different program for that?

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Old growth, shmold growth!

..sorry to be a pest, but you need to do a little more reading on the CNC process....

Have you looked at this?

http://www.vectric.com/support/introduction-to-cnc.html

Specifically under the label CNC Workflow....

However, to answer your question, it typically flows like this:

CAD Software -> CAM Software (Can be a plugin to the CAD Software) -> Machine Controller -> CNC Machine that does things!

So....Rhino is the CAD part....

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-CyborgCNC
http://www.cncguitar.com
https://www.facebook.com/CncGuitar

Man, all I've been doing is reading LOL!

I've even read that section you've posted.

I don't see any info on the Rhino site as to what they reccomend for generating the G code. I guess the CAM software does that specific function?

That's what I'm trying to find out.

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Old growth, shmold growth!

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-CyborgCNC
http://www.cncguitar.com
https://www.facebook.com/CncGuitar

tgw, neither Rhino or Solidworks have built in cam. Right now you can purchase Rhino and Madcam v5X3 for around $1600 and there are no maintenance fees. no hidden costs. Support is second to none with many Rhino users right here on OLF but many more on CNCZone. I personally do support for Madcam and personally use it.

I have only built one guitar totally from scratch, but I used Rhino and Madcam exclusively in the design and machining of all the parts.



no maintenance fees......great support......several people on site using the combo.......hmmmm

Mike

Thanx! Looks like that may be the ticket...

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Old growth, shmold growth!

browse alibre as well. you can design and post code for about $1500. very solidworks like in it's interface.

bob cad sucks (IMO of course). i remember when it came out and the salesmen came calling. the demos proved that it sucked back then and it still sucks today. it will stunt your growth.

soild works has cam works as a plug in. cost is 10k for the add on. it's pretty good on mills and will do 4 and 5 axis right out of the box. but it's terrible on lathe.

having been spoiled on mastercam since the early 90's and used almost every cad/cam system out there since 86' they pretty much always "get it done" one way or another, but what the b team programs lack is the sophistication in their tool path strategies and unified cross platform methodologies that make transitions from program to program frustrating.

Is there a strong advantage to a CAM plugin? I tried RhinoCAM but it slowed down my computer so much on the CAD side that I switched to VisualMill. Plus you can upgrade the CAD and CAM software separately to spread out the hit to your cashflow.

a cam plug-in to a cad system can offer seamless integration from one side to another. with stand alone systems you could have issues with file interpretation maybe even having to use a "neutral" file format like iges or step or going binary for your import/export needs going from one program to another. having said that, your better systems will require less in the way of file converters and/or the need to pay extra for them. for example camworks is a solidworks certified "gold" partner which means seamless integration or basically everything works.

back in the day getting files that imported from one system to another without a mess of broken lines, surfaces with holes, or splines lazing about the model was a lot of work. now not so much as things are getting better in this area.

you basically need to examine your needs now and where you want to be in the next couple of years. balance that against what you can afford in not only raw cash, but in learning curve as well and it's effects upon missed opportunity.

Amen to that!!! I have tried several CAM packages, and once you used MasterCam, you become spoiled for life!

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-CyborgCNC
http://www.cncguitar.com
https://www.facebook.com/CncGuitar

Bobcad has never let me down....and it is very easy to use and get good results with. No, it's not Solidworks or Rhino, but for someone with a limited budget, it's hard to beat.

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

Don I felt the same way until I was introduced to Rhino then to Madcam! I don't know about the other packages, but Rhino/Madcam is light years faster than Bobcad. The again, I quit using it at version 17. Tried 19 and 20 and never went back.

I am not knocking what you use, just telling you my experience.

Mike

I am curious what Solidworks and the cam plugin total cost is? Not the student version, but the real deal.

Mike

It looks to me that they are roughly 10 grand each.

They also look like they have a huge organization with lots of overhead and tech support.

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Old growth, shmold growth!

SolidWorks runs about $4 to $5k depending on how aggressive your negotiating skills are for the basic package - which is plenty powerful to do just about anything you need.

As to plug-ins for SW, they start at about $1500 for VisualMill for SolidWorks and go up from there.

I'm a SolidWorks guy but I think I agree that as far as bang for your buck goes, the Rhino + plugin is the most powerful.

Now, if inlay is going to be your primary use, Vectric's Vcarve pro has them all beat but, it has no 3D capabilities.

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http://www.birkonium.com CNC Products for Luthiers
http://banduramaker.blogspot.com

To put SW into perspective, at the day job we run SW2011 with EPDM. a 3 user network license with GSA discount was 18K. 1 seat of Camworks was 10K. Each additional seat of SW costs around 1.5K, and we run 30 seats. After tossing Camworks, we went with Surfcam with which our Mastercam trained programmers couldn't figure out even with the classes we sent them to and the books we bought them. Now we use Mastercam X7 and they are happy campers.

SW owned by Dassult, is a large global corp and the defacto standard for mid-level cad software with Autodesk being below and Catia being above. They offer certification courses and tons of support plus a large well run user forum. Their distributors will try their best to gouge you with update and maintenance fees until you need a restraining order to make them go away. They are the perfect choice for a thrusting smallish to medium manufacturing or design firm. Unless you have disposable income the above choices are worth looking into.

Visual Mill standalone is the same price as RhinoCAM, IIRC, and I'd advise always going with the standalone product VS a plugin version. If nothing else, the standalone product is the company's #1 priority at all times. Things like MadCAM and SolidCAM are a different story, since they are only offered as plug-ins.

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Bob Garrish
Former Canonized Purveyor of Fine CNC Luthier Services