Official Luthiers Forum! :: View topic - Porter Cable 75182 or water cooled spindle?

http://www.automationtechnologiesinc.com/products-page/cnc-router

Here you go James,

This can, if you choose, be a one stop shop!

You will need the spindle, vfd and a breakout board capable of interfacing Mach the vfd and the spindle.

Mike

ps 2.2 will be plenty unless you just want more
btw, you can a couple of pretty good vendors in the frozen north as well, but I did not have them bookmarked!

Don't go any smaller than an ER 20 collet or you won't be able to run a 1/2" tool.

A good spindle will run circles around a PC. The fact that there are a ton of collet sizes make it even more useful.

Teknomotor is another well known spindle that's significantly cheaper than Colombo. George over at Xzero CNC is in Canada, I believe is a dealer and he might be able to hook you up. I got my Tekno through him.

Sheldon Dingwall wrote:

Sheldon, what would you classify as a "good" spindle? I am not the type of guy that likes to do things the cheap way.
If I am told the Chinese spindles are a no-go, I will buy something much more expensive if need be.

I'm not so sure about a Chinese VFD.

Sheldon Dingwall wrote:

I'm not so sure about a Chinese VFD.

I would definitely stay away. A member here on the OLF was kind enough to send me his never used Chinese VFD for the price of shipping and it was DOA. I've also read that they die really really quickly.

I went with a Hitachi WJ and a line reactor per the recommendation of Tekno's local distributor. If I'm remembering correctly, they won't warranty spindles that are in service without a line reactor. The spindle ran about 5º cooler once I installed it as well.

The WJ comes in both single phase and three phase versions and you're right, the difference is in the diodes' power ratings. I have a 2.2kW VFD for single phase and I think that's the max that you can get with single phase if I remember correctly.

In three phase VFD's, the rectifier diodes have a lower power rating than those in a single phase unit because there's more of them. When you attach only one phase, all of the current is going through only four of the six diodes in the circuit. Here's an article I found on how to derate a three phase VFD for single phase use: http://www.dartcontrols.com/wp-content/ ... -Power.pdf

All that said, 2.2kW is probably plenty for most guitar type of work at the speeds we're running. I routinely cut at 200ipm, 100% bit diameter DOC with 1/2" and 10mm bits all the time.

A line reactor is simply an inductor that goes in series between the VFD and the spindle. Apparently it cleans up the power signal and the spindle runs cooler and lasts longer. I think they're around $100 for a 2.2kW line reactor.

Author:	AlexanderJamesGuitar [ Fri Feb 14, 2014 1:53 pm ]
Post subject:	Porter Cable 75182 or water cooled spindle?
Hey everyone. I currently have a PC 75182 router on my Techno Gantry III 040 CNC. I find the router loud and not powerful enough. I want to upgrade to a quiet water cooled spindle. I was thinking 2.2kw or 3 kw. Would this be a good upgrade? What is a reliable Chinese spindle? (Or not Chinese) Am I going to even notice a difference in accuracy and power? I know I would need a matching VFD, a water pump, tubing, and cabling. What else would I need? I would like to control the whole setup with Mach 3.

Author:	turmite [ Sat Feb 15, 2014 10:13 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Porter Cable 75182 or water cooled spindle?
http://www.automationtechnologiesinc.co ... cnc-router Here you go James, This can, if you choose, be a one stop shop! You will need the spindle, vfd and a breakout board capable of interfacing Mach the vfd and the spindle. Mike ps 2.2 will be plenty unless you just want more btw, you can a couple of pretty good vendors in the frozen north as well, but I did not have them bookmarked!

Author:	Sheldon Dingwall [ Sun Feb 16, 2014 11:08 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Porter Cable 75182 or water cooled spindle?
Don't go any smaller than an ER 20 collet or you won't be able to run a 1/2" tool. A good spindle will run circles around a PC. The fact that there are a ton of collet sizes make it even more useful.

Author:	Saul Koll [ Sun Feb 16, 2014 4:13 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Porter Cable 75182 or water cooled spindle?
I'm in a similar situation wanting to move to a spindle on my K2, currently running a Bosch router. Can someone explain the water pump to me? Can this be controlled by the Mach3 as well?

Author:	turmite [ Sun Feb 16, 2014 9:51 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Porter Cable 75182 or water cooled spindle?
Saul if I understand the water system correctly, it is simply a water jacket type thing around the spindle to dissipate the heat through the water. Water is pumped from a small reservoir by a recirculating pump. I have read that many use fish aquarium pumps. You hit a switch and turn the pump on and leave it on until you know you are not going to run the spindle for a while. At least, that is my understanding. Mike

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Author:	AlexanderJamesGuitar [ Sun Feb 16, 2014 11:15 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Porter Cable 75182 or water cooled spindle?
turmite wrote: http://www.automationtechnologiesinc.com/products-page/cnc-router Here you go James, This can, if you choose, be a one stop shop! You will need the spindle, vfd and a breakout board capable of interfacing Mach the vfd and the spindle. Mike ps 2.2 will be plenty unless you just want more btw, you can a couple of pretty good vendors in the frozen north as well, but I did not have them bookmarked! I would love to know of those frozen north vendors. I hear the Chinese spindles are hit and miss. I don't really want to drop $500 on a spindle with no warranty haha.

Author:	turmite [ Mon Feb 17, 2014 4:56 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Porter Cable 75182 or water cooled spindle?
http://www.pdscolombo.com/manual-tool-change/3 If money is not an object, the I would by all means be contacting these folks! The spindles will run you up to about $11000 for an atc but I have no idea what the manual is. They are really nice folks to talk to and they offered to check my Chinese ATC spindle out, install the highest grade bearings etc for just a fraction of what the spindle cost. I told them I had not even turned my spindle on yet, and they told me how to check it to make sure the grease had not set in the bearings. They also sell the Colombo spindle. Mike

Author:	Andy Birko [ Mon Feb 17, 2014 1:54 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Porter Cable 75182 or water cooled spindle?
Teknomotor is another well known spindle that's significantly cheaper than Colombo. George over at Xzero CNC is in Canada, I believe is a dealer and he might be able to hook you up. I got my Tekno through him.

Author:	Jmc2010 [ Mon Feb 17, 2014 2:09 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Porter Cable 75182 or water cooled spindle?
Andy Birko wrote: Teknomotor is another well known spindle that's significantly cheaper than Colombo. George over at Xzero CNC is in Canada, I believe is a dealer and he might be able to hook you up. I got my Tekno through him. You can contact George, but I don't believe he is carrying Teknomotor anymore. They didn't want to drop ship to the US anymore, they wanted to ship directly to George, and it impacted the cost too much to send it back out. I contacted www.americanspindle.com which is the US distributor.

Author:	AlexanderJamesGuitar [ Mon Feb 17, 2014 5:00 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Porter Cable 75182 or water cooled spindle?
Andy Birko wrote: Teknomotor is another well known spindle that's significantly cheaper than Colombo. George over at Xzero CNC is in Canada, I believe is a dealer and he might be able to hook you up. I got my Tekno through him. Ya, already contacted him. He said he recently stopped dealing Tekno. Any other ideas or spindle manufacturers that I may be able to get in Canada? Maybe even just a reputable Chinese spindle ebay seller? I know I said money wasn't holding me back but Columbos are...expensive. hahahahaha

Author:	Sheldon Dingwall [ Thu Feb 20, 2014 12:59 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Porter Cable 75182 or water cooled spindle?
AlexanderJamesGuitar wrote: Sheldon Dingwall wrote: Don't go any smaller than an ER 20 collet or you won't be able to run a 1/2" tool. A good spindle will run circles around a PC. The fact that there are a ton of collet sizes make it even more useful. Sheldon, what would you classify as a "good" spindle? I am not the type of guy that likes to do things the cheap way. If I am told the Chinese spindles are a no-go, I will buy something much more expensive if need be. Great spindles are Colombo, Perske and Teknomotor - although I've not heard as much about Teknomotor. Lots of guys are pretty happy with the Chinese spindles when they get a good one. Here's where buying from a US or Canadian distributor should make a difference. At least you can return it if it sucks. I'm not so sure about a Chinese VFD. Hitachi's are 2-3X the price. Probably worth considering spending your money there. Runout and end play are key. The closer to zero the better. Measure once the spindle has warmed up though. I was making a phenolic fixture last week. Profile cut mostly through on the Fadal and then the bottom cleaned up with a trim bit in a PC in a router table. The chatter in the surface from the trim bit was unbelievable compared to the surface left by the Fadal.

Author:	Andy Birko [ Thu Feb 20, 2014 6:34 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Porter Cable 75182 or water cooled spindle?
Sheldon Dingwall wrote: I'm not so sure about a Chinese VFD. I would definitely stay away. A member here on the OLF was kind enough to send me his never used Chinese VFD for the price of shipping and it was DOA. I've also read that they die really really quickly. I went with a Hitachi WJ and a line reactor per the recommendation of Tekno's local distributor. If I'm remembering correctly, they won't warranty spindles that are in service without a line reactor. The spindle ran about 5º cooler once I installed it as well.

Author:	AlexanderJamesGuitar [ Sun Feb 23, 2014 2:05 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Porter Cable 75182 or water cooled spindle?
Andy Birko wrote: Sheldon Dingwall wrote: I'm not so sure about a Chinese VFD. I would definitely stay away. A member here on the OLF was kind enough to send me his never used Chinese VFD for the price of shipping and it was DOA. I've also read that they die really really quickly. I went with a Hitachi WJ and a line reactor per the recommendation of Tekno's local distributor. If I'm remembering correctly, they won't warranty spindles that are in service without a line reactor. The spindle ran about 5º cooler once I installed it as well. I am definitely considering the Hitachi WJ Andy. Someone told me if you want to use a 3KW spindle, you should get a VFD that can handle 2x the KW of the spindle if you feed the VFD with 220v, 1 phase rather than 3 phase. Something about how it makes the diodes work much harder at 1 phase so you should get a 7.5KW VFD for a 3KW spindle. Thoughts? Also, what is a line reactor? what does it do?

Author:	Andy Birko [ Sun Feb 23, 2014 7:58 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Porter Cable 75182 or water cooled spindle?
The WJ comes in both single phase and three phase versions and you're right, the difference is in the diodes' power ratings. I have a 2.2kW VFD for single phase and I think that's the max that you can get with single phase if I remember correctly. In three phase VFD's, the rectifier diodes have a lower power rating than those in a single phase unit because there's more of them. When you attach only one phase, all of the current is going through only four of the six diodes in the circuit. Here's an article I found on how to derate a three phase VFD for single phase use: http://www.dartcontrols.com/wp-content/ ... -Power.pdf All that said, 2.2kW is probably plenty for most guitar type of work at the speeds we're running. I routinely cut at 200ipm, 100% bit diameter DOC with 1/2" and 10mm bits all the time. A line reactor is simply an inductor that goes in series between the VFD and the spindle. Apparently it cleans up the power signal and the spindle runs cooler and lasts longer. I think they're around $100 for a 2.2kW line reactor.

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Author:	John Coloccia [ Sun Feb 23, 2014 10:41 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Porter Cable 75182 or water cooled spindle?
I have the same VFD that Andy has with almost the same spindle, and I think Andy's right that it's the biggest you can get for 220C, 30A. I don't have the reactor yet, but I can't imagine needing any more power to do wood working. I've had a couple of crashes early on, and this thing went through a solid chunk of mahogany like it wasn't even there. After it was done, most of it wasn't there anymore, actually.

Author:	AlexanderJamesGuitar [ Tue Feb 25, 2014 8:19 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Porter Cable 75182 or water cooled spindle?
Andy Birko wrote: The WJ comes in both single phase and three phase versions and you're right, the difference is in the diodes' power ratings. I have a 2.2kW VFD for single phase and I think that's the max that you can get with single phase if I remember correctly. In three phase VFD's, the rectifier diodes have a lower power rating than those in a single phase unit because there's more of them. When you attach only one phase, all of the current is going through only four of the six diodes in the circuit. Here's an article I found on how to derate a three phase VFD for single phase use: http://www.dartcontrols.com/wp-content/ ... -Power.pdf All that said, 2.2kW is probably plenty for most guitar type of work at the speeds we're running. I routinely cut at 200ipm, 100% bit diameter DOC with 1/2" and 10mm bits all the time. A line reactor is simply an inductor that goes in series between the VFD and the spindle. Apparently it cleans up the power signal and the spindle runs cooler and lasts longer. I think they're around $100 for a 2.2kW line reactor. Alright. So time to put this all together. I will try and make this as simple as possible so that maybe others can follow and get quick answers here. Here is the spindle I want: http://www.ebay.ca/itm/191057514630?ssP ... 1423.l2649 Here is the VFD I want (need): http://www.ebay.ca/itm/330955156014?ssP ... 1423.l2649 Andy, based on your link there ^^^. If my 3KW spindle draws 12a max and I multiply that by 1.73, I get 20.76a. That means my Hitachi VFD should be able to handle that. The Hitachi VFD I want says Rated input current (A) 23.0. Is this alright? Apart from the Spindle and VFD, I need matching water cooling hosing for the spindle, and an appropriate water pump. (easy enough) I also need specialized shielded VFD cabling to wire the VFD to Spindle. Is this correct? What is a good brand? A 3KW line reactor between VFD and Spindle as well. Have I missed anything? Any suggestions?

Author:	Andy Birko [ Thu Feb 27, 2014 8:05 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Porter Cable 75182 or water cooled spindle?
Alexander, From what I'm reading, it looks like you should be ok. The link to the spindle says it's a 3.2kW but that still shouldn't be a problem. The VFD will allow you to limit the max current to safe levels. And as we mentioned, 2.2kW is plenty for guitar work so if you're around 3kW you'll have more than enough power. Also, check the diameter of the spindle, it might not fit in your PC sized mount so you might have to buy or make new ones. My spindle is air cooled so I don't know anything about water lines etc. Good luck!