Official Luthiers Forum!
http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/

I have a big problem. Or do I?
http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10122&t=22708		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  enalnitram [ Fri Jun 12, 2009 8:44 am ]
Post subject:  I have a big problem. Or do I?
I have been working on a kit that is a 000, 14-fret, 24.9" scale. the parts are all CF Martin. I bought the kit from a kit supplier that puts the kits together using CF Martin parts.

The top started its life as an om-21 top. but the bracing pattern on the underside had been drawn for a 000.

I just discovered this recently. As I was assembling the kit, when I glued the top onto the rim, I matched the holes on the top with the holes on the neck block, and doing so, made the sound hole (and the bracing along with it) be 1/4" down the guitar, away from the fingerboard/neck.

Image

Because this is really an OM top, I needed to move the holes on the top 1/4" past the holes on the neck block to make it work with the 24.9" scale.

you can see how the fingerboard is a 1/4" too far from the soundhole:

Image

I'm planning to take the guitar to be finished by Joe on Sunday. but now that I realize I have a problem, I'm not sure how this guitar is going to be. is it worth it to have this guitar finished by Joe? When I string it up is the top going to crack? will this guitar have a shorter life? will it sound bad or muffled? gaah

or should I just go for it and see what happens? maybe add a 1/8"-1/4" piece of maple to the front of the bridge plate to help it out a little, and hope for the best?

I'm just feeling sick about it, that I've put so much time into this kit, only to have my bracing ALL off by 1/4". [headinwall]

what would you do?
Author:  Ricardo [ Fri Jun 12, 2009 9:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: I have a big problem. Or do I?
Martin, it is not a show stopper. My Taylor 414CE fingerboard ends 1/4" before the sound board (in this case by design).
Author:  David Collins [ Fri Jun 12, 2009 9:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: I have a big problem. Or do I?
I really don't see any problems. Where will your pins fall on your bridge plate?
Author:  enalnitram [ Fri Jun 12, 2009 9:24 am ]
Post subject:  Re: I have a big problem. Or do I?
David Collins wrote:
I really don't see any problems. Where will your pins fall on your bridge plate?


I already drilled for the bridge pins. and they are kind of in the middle of it. pretty far from the cross braces. when I feel around under there, there is plenty of space between the holes and the cross braces.

the front of the bridge is kinda flush with the front of the bridge plate. but the back of the bridge plate clears the back of the bridge by probably 3/8" total.

when I feel around under the top, the cross braces feel like they go under the back corners of the bridge, like I've read that they should. but I'm not an expert at this being a newbie.
Author:  David Collins [ Fri Jun 12, 2009 10:06 am ]
Post subject:  Re: I have a big problem. Or do I?
It's perfect. There is no problem. If it continues to bother you, the best solution for it is probably medication (pills are okay, but I find single malt works just as well). :mrgreen:

Really. There's nothing wrong at all.
Author:  enalnitram [ Fri Jun 12, 2009 10:13 am ]
Post subject:  Re: I have a big problem. Or do I?
David Collins wrote:
It's perfect. There is no problem. If it continues to bother you, the best solution for it is probably medication (pills are okay, but I find single malt works just as well). :mrgreen:

Really. There's nothing wrong at all.


but shouldn't the bridge plate be bigger on all sides of the bridge? if it doesn't clear the bridge toward the soundhole, will I get a sunken top in that area, eventually?

I'm wondering if there is a non-heat producing bulb in my house that I could put inside the body, and then snap a pic of the top that would reveal where the braces and the bridge plate are.
Author:  Pat Foster [ Fri Jun 12, 2009 1:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: I have a big problem. Or do I?
You can use a compact florescent bulb, block off the soundhole with a round piece of cardboard to minimize light leakage. Then turn off the room lights, and with the camera on a tripod or kept stable somehow, snap your picture.

Bear in mind the CF bulb doesn't put out as much heat as an incandescent, but still can get pretty warm, don't leave it on in there too long.

There's a thread over on UMGF with the tops of a lot of guitars done this way.

But really, it sounds like it'll be fine. Not optimum, but not terrible by a long shot.

Pat
Author:  enalnitram [ Fri Jun 12, 2009 5:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: I have a big problem. Or do I?
well, after looking this thing over and doing research, I've concluded that in order for this thing to have been built exactly right, I would've needed to misalign the holes on the top with the holes on the neck block by 1/4". but I didn't do that, nor was I given a heads up by the kit provider that this was the case -- that he had drawn a 000 bracing pattern on an OM top.

I'm toying with the idea of asking him if he will give me another Martin 000 top and new braces, and a bridge plate. I'd remove my top, salvage my herringbone purfling, make new maple binding, and put the new top on. is this a crazy idea? the guitar was going to be for me, anyway.

I think it will work as is, but it won't be ideal. knowing that it won't be a ideal, will be an eternal drag, so I'd rather do what I can about it now.
Author:  David Collins [ Fri Jun 12, 2009 6:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: I have a big problem. Or do I?
IT'S FINE!!!!!!

IT'S FINE IT'S FINE IT'S FINE IT'S FINE IT'S FINE IT'S FINE IT'S FINE IT'S FINE !!!!!!!

[headinwall] [headinwall] [headinwall] [headinwall] [headinwall]

There is absolutely NOTHING WRONG with your layout, and it will have absolutely NO EFFECT on the structure of your instrument. If it collapses, it will be for other reasons and have collapsed if the bracing and plate weren't shifted at all.

A bridge plate doesn't even have to be as large as the bridge - many prefer a total 1" wide plate under a 1.5" bridge.

I'm serious. This is an anxiety issue which is completely, absolutely, irrefutably and indisputably without any warrant for concern.

If you want' to rip off this top and put a new one on just for fun, go for it. If perfection in tonal voicing is your main concern, you can begin to hone in on this about when you've completed another 50 or 100 guitars after this. If the issue is anxiety because of your awareness of a flaw (which is not a flaw in any tangible or practical sense, but only an abstract one of intentions), then pick the pills or the liquor and get it out of your system.

There is nothing wrong with your guitar.........


Nothing.



It's fine.
Author:  enalnitram [ Fri Jun 12, 2009 6:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: I have a big problem. Or do I?
ok, I hear you loud and clear. i think i will let it go. i appreciate you hearing me out and giving your input! [uncle]

my sister in law has this handy pocket mirror which i was able to get very clear shots of the bridge plate with. the holes i drilled for the bridge holes are almost dead center -- if I hadn't had this problem, they may have even been off, somehow. it really does look ... fine....
Author:  David Collins [ Fri Jun 12, 2009 6:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: I have a big problem. Or do I?
Apologies for sounding a bit course - if you knew me well enough in person, my tone of voice would come through much better in the text (emoticons never quite cut it).

As a more useful perspective, the results you ended up with are well within the range of intentional layout on many guitars, historical and current. This leaves you with a case of them simply being of very minor discrepancy to the specific layout you intended in this case. Of course this was just one generic modern layout anyway, so if it makes you rest any easier you can try to think of it as an unintentional yet perfectly acceptable modification to another perfectly acceptable design, though the changes are slight.
Author:  Andy Birko [ Fri Jun 12, 2009 7:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: I have a big problem. Or do I?
David Collins wrote:
IT'S FINE!!!!!!

IT'S FINE IT'S FINE IT'S FINE IT'S FINE IT'S FINE IT'S FINE IT'S FINE IT'S FINE !!!!!!!

[headinwall] [headinwall] [headinwall] [headinwall] [headinwall]

There is absolutely NOTHING WRONG with your layout, and it will have absolutely NO EFFECT on the structure of your instrument.

There is nothing wrong with your guitar.........


Nothing.

It's fine.


Yea, but are you sure?

(duck and cover)
Author:  George L [ Fri Jun 12, 2009 9:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: I have a big problem. Or do I?
Martin,
So glad you are holding off on the re-top. I'm a newbie, so hesitate to jump into these things, but it seemed pretty extreme to me.

David,
I always appreciate your posts. Thanks for having the conviction to tell it like it is. For those of us with more questions than answers, your input and support is invaluable.
Author:  enalnitram [ Sun Jun 14, 2009 9:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: I have a big problem. Or do I?
I drilled for the high 'e' and low 'e' and here's what it looks like from inside. (um, I let my son draw a picture on the underside of the top.)

Image
Author:  enalnitram [ Mon Jun 15, 2009 10:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: I have a big problem. Or do I?
I talked to Steve Kovacik this morning about it, and he assured me I was going to have no issues with the structural integrity of this guitar, and he explained why. He made a good case for it, and I think I believe him, too. Stringing it up, of course, will be the real test, but my building ability will be a factor there, too, of course.

A good case could be made that I built this thing the way that Martins are built, by lining up the holes on the neck block to the holes on the top. And doing it the "right" way caused a problem. In my case I needed a heads-up about that in order to avoid the resulting issues ... but I don't like to blame others. So, while talking to Steve, I felt responsible for my own actions (ie, screwup) -- live and learn, as they say. I could have asked him to send me a new top, but that would've been really lame, in a way. Steve is really cool, and I'd rather continue to support him, not punish or accuse him.

Be sure to use extra care when putting an OM top on a 000 guitar, or about assembling anything, on any guitar. Get measurements or plans, and check everything. In the case of kits, don't assume a factory-made line or mark is always going to work!
Author:  David LaPlante [ Wed Jun 17, 2009 8:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: I have a big problem. Or do I?
I agree EMPHATICALLY will David Collins here .
It looks like you've done a really fine job of aassembly thus far.
Frankly, the relationship of the bridgeplate to the bridge location, pin holes and X braces looks in a word, ideal. If the pins holes fell outside of the plate or the bridge missed the X braces entirely you <might> have a problem though I've seen some fabulous guitars that were made this way and were fine after decades.
I understand completely the issue you have described but the actual measured difference between the 14th-20th fret (not to the end of the board as this can be quite variable) on a 25.4" scale and a 24.9" scale is.067" (around 1/16 of an inch). This measurement and the resultant position of the X will be utterly negligable in relation to the response of the instrument..... many other factors will have an infinitely greater efect.
Finish out the guitar and enjoy!!!
Author:  Corky Long [ Wed Jun 17, 2009 8:28 am ]
Post subject:  Re: I have a big problem. Or do I?
Let us know how it sounds.... I'm sure you'll be pleased.

This guitar building stuff is just a tad addictive, as most of us have found out. If you're like me, you'll be planning your next one pretty soon - maybe from a kit, or maybe from scratch. You'll improve your technique in some areas and make some new mistakes.

After four guitars, I'm clearly still a novice, but I think I've gotten a lot of those mistakes out of my system (and yet to - and the way I'm looking at it is to get as many fleshed out as I can, as quickly as possible. My own technique for this (and I don't presume that it's the technique that will work for you, or anyone else) is to correct some mistakes, adapt the design or the decoration when other mistakes make it necessary, and only when absolutely necessary, take it apart and replace something I've done. For me, getting the first one done was critical - if I'd redone parts where I screwed up (and according to the experts you don't really have an issue at all - for me an "issue" was routing through the back of the neck while putting in the channel for the truss rod laughing6-hehe ) I never would have gotten it done.

The second was much better - the third better than that (lets not talk about the fourth) and on the fifth I'm confident it will be better than that. Still making errors, but I haven't made the same one twice too often, which is really my goal. And I'm learning everything I can from these folks, so I can sidestep some others.

Enjoy - you're going to love putting strings on that first guitar - and listening to the sound improve after you play it and retune it for a couple of weeks is magic.
Author:  Jody [ Sun Jan 24, 2010 9:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: I have a big problem. Or do I?
I think its fine ! oh wait did someone already say that ? just teasing, I wouldnt finish a guitar without stringing it up first , and playing it for a month or so. stew mac sell these gadgets that clamp the bridge at the two e/E strings, and those strings pass through the center of the clamp rod, the other four strings you use standard bridge pins , or however you plan to hold them .. nice job so far.did you buy your kit on ebay ? Jody
Author:  enalnitram [ Sun Jan 24, 2010 10:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: I have a big problem. Or do I?
hi Jody, I finished the guitar in August of 09 and it came out good. I'll always wonder what slight difference the bridge placement may have made, and the fingerboard falling short of the hole is kinda different, but it plays and sounds really nice. I didn't buy it on ebay.
Author:  Jody [ Mon Jan 25, 2010 7:33 am ]
Post subject:  Re: I have a big problem. Or do I?
LOL sheesh was I up too late or what ? i neevr noticed the dates on the thread ! I am glad to hear everything turned out well for you ! jody
Page 1 of 1 All times are UTC - 5 hours
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
http://www.phpbb.com/