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wood filler on a new custom made guitar?
http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10123&t=33484
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Author:  quigs [ Fri Sep 09, 2011 4:58 pm ]
Post subject:  wood filler on a new custom made guitar?

Hello, new to forum. I signed on to get some opinions on a construction problem I have. I had this custom guitar built and cost me a bit of money. It took 3 months to build. I will make the story short, promise. Maple neck, ebony board, mop diamond inlays, alder body, one pickup, (bridge) and a hardtail bridge. When I took the guitar out of the case I immediately noticed lines where the neck pickup would have been and lines where the tone knobs would have been. I emailed him and he said he used a light wood filler to fill in the neck pickup and the tone controls and that the filler had sank. Is this normal on a brand new custom guitar? Should'nt he have used a new plank of wood instead of filling in the holes with wood filler on a pre-made body? Its not the cosmetics of it, its the build quality. The guitar is nice and plays well, but why would you use wood filler on a brand new guitar. Confused!!!!

Author:  Mustang_jt [ Fri Sep 09, 2011 5:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: wood filler on a new custom made guitar?

This guitar was obviously not built from scratch. No one would put pickup cavities or holes for controls that aren't going to be there, then fill them in. This was put together from pre-made body. Hopefully this is not someone from this forum, but I would be embarrassed to send that out from my shop and try to pass it off as custom built. I also don't know what type of finish this has, but I would not use any sort of wood filler under a translucent/transparent finish, if the hole or blemish is big enough to need wood filler, the body should be re-built IMO. It will never look right because there is no way to perfectly match wood filler to the wood. I am curious to know what you paid for this guitar.

Author:  jimmysux [ Fri Sep 09, 2011 6:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: wood filler on a new custom made guitar?

Yeah, you got ripped off. No one routes stuff just to fill it immediately with a filler. You need to send the guitar back and get your money back.

Author:  quigs [ Fri Sep 09, 2011 8:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: wood filler on a new custom made guitar?

Mustang_jt wrote:
This guitar was obviously not built from scratch. No one would put pickup cavities or holes for controls that aren't going to be there, then fill them in. This was put together from pre-made body. Hopefully this is not someone from this forum, but I would be embarrassed to send that out from my shop and try to pass it off as custom built. I also don't know what type of finish this has, but I would not use any sort of wood filler under a translucent/transparent finish, if the hole or blemish is big enough to need wood filler, the body should be re-built IMO. It will never look right because there is no way to perfectly match wood filler to the wood. I am curious to know what you paid for this guitar.
The color was white. He did offer to fix it but I said I wanted the body redone, or a refund. He also guaranteed my money back if I was dissapointed. He said no on the rebuild of the body and no on the refund. He did offer me a more exspensive guitar in exchange for the one I have. That guitar is not what I wanted so I said no to that as well. I looked in to taking him to small claims court, but I do not want to put more money into this. He also had the nerve to tell me that the filler gave the guitar its own tone, do to the filler. The company is (name removed by moderator) His website is the same as the name. Thanks for the reply.

Author:  jeremy budgen [ Fri Sep 09, 2011 10:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: wood filler on a new custom made guitar?

Had a look at his web site, it seems he does make them himself, looks like he uses a cnc and rhino cad.

I think he made up the body for another customer who might have changed the layout or he made the mistake of putting the wrong pup cavities in it so he tryed to palm it off as an original custom.

what did you pay for it

Author:  Chameleon [ Fri Sep 09, 2011 11:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: wood filler on a new custom made guitar?

I would've at least put some kind of top on it. No need for such ugly work. Bad way to market yourself.

Author:  quigs [ Sat Sep 10, 2011 4:17 am ]
Post subject:  Re: wood filler on a new custom made guitar?

I paid $1200 and I paid for the pickup. Had a custom wound Bare Knuckle Warpig made. I really was not mad, I was just disappointed. When I first got with him we talked and I had turned him down, then he quoted me $1200. I have stripped the guitar of all its parts and the pickup. I will return the body and neck to him. He can keep that and the money. Maybe I'll try and build one myself. Once again thanks for the replies. Next time I will research a little more.

Author:  theguitarwhisperer [ Sat Sep 10, 2011 8:19 am ]
Post subject:  Re: wood filler on a new custom made guitar?

I always tell people, be careful when the guy prices himself out of being worthwhile to do it right. You usually get what you pay for.

Author:  John Killin [ Sat Sep 10, 2011 8:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: wood filler on a new custom made guitar?

Since you named the builder I think we need some more information.

Did you change your order when the guitar was being built? Did you decide on the pickup arrangement before he routed the body?

Did he fill the entire cavity with wood filler or did he insert a wood plug and fill around that? Is what you are seeing a line around the cavity or is the entire cavity sunk in?

Personally if I were in your shoes, I would want to know how he planned on making it right. What would he do to fill it? He offered another guitar in its place. With no refund on the table at this point, I would either send your back for repair or take the more expensive one he had offered. Then at least you would have a guitar for your money. You could always sell it. Ask for some detailed pics.

Don't drastically change the guitar before he gets a chace to fix it. You will be putting yourself in muddy waters at that point.

Author:  alan stassforth [ Sat Sep 10, 2011 8:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: wood filler on a new custom made guitar?

This all sounds strange to me.
Why would you send anything back to him,
unless he was going to fix it.
Too bad he didn't use bondo.
It doesn't shrink.

Author:  quigs [ Sat Sep 10, 2011 2:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: wood filler on a new custom made guitar?

I gave him all the specs up front. He said he used a light wood filler no wood plug. Its a pretty deep line all the way around the cavity The middle looks like it has a slight dip. When he ask to fix it I said the only way to make it right is a new body. He sent me an email ranting on how he stands by his work and that wood filler is common practice. At that point I just did not want to deal with him any longer. Not to get to personal, but I had a heart attack 6 years ago and I do not want to stress over it. I came on here to get a better understanding on how to build a guitar and get some feed back. All of you have been very nice and kind and I thank you for that. I just play at home while my wife is in the tub, she would kill me if she knew I said that!! I read his reviews and seen pictures on his site, there are even a couple of you tube videos. They all promising, like I said before sometimes you just never know.
John Killin wrote:
Since you named the builder I think we need some more information.

Did you change your order when the guitar was being built? Did you decide on the pickup arrangement before he routed the body?

Did he fill the entire cavity with wood filler or did he insert a wood plug and fill around that? Is what you are seeing a line around the cavity or is the entire cavity sunk in?

Personally if I were in your shoes, I would want to know how he planned on making it right. What would he do to fill it? He offered another guitar in its place. With no refund on the table at this point, I would either send your back for repair or take the more expensive one he had offered. Then at least you would have a guitar for your money. You could always sell it. Ask for some detailed pics.

Don't drastically change the guitar before he gets a chace to fix it. You will be putting yourself in muddy waters at that point.

Author:  zsthomas [ Sat Sep 10, 2011 8:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: wood filler on a new custom made guitar?

beehive

Author:  alan stassforth [ Sat Sep 10, 2011 8:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: wood filler on a new custom made guitar?

zsthomas wrote:
I built the guitar in question, and it has just come to my attention that this thread has was started.

First of all, the shape and design of this guitar is mine and mine alone. There are luthiers who will claim not to have used any filler on a "painted" guitar. I have built many with minimal or no filler. This particular customer wanted an unusual setup (no neck pickup and no controls) This required using a bondo type filler to modify my current design.

I did not say "the filler gave the guitar its own tone, due to the filler", what I
said was that the filler did not have any negative consequences to the tone of
this guitar. The customer had admited he was pleased with the instruments sound, and I was trying to convey the simple fact that if the guitar had been made any other way, the guitar might not sound as good... you could not have asked for any better results for this instruments tone and sustain.

The guitar when it left my shop did not have any sinking in the finish. The pictures of it are here: "http://www.zsthomas.com/no15.html"


Some sinking occured in the finish, and I offered to fix the problem free of charge. The customer declined. I offered to exchange it for a more valuable instrument, one that I have in stock that has no filler in it. The customer declined that offer as well.

I offer a straight forward legitimate service to my customers at an affordable price. My guitars are original, they're unique and they're high quality. I'm proud of the work I do, and I will maintain that you can't find a better guitar for your money, at this price range, anywhere.

[:Y:] [:Y:] [:Y:]

Author:  LanceK [ Sat Sep 10, 2011 8:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: wood filler on a new custom made guitar?

Hi Quigs,
Welcome to the OLF, I just wanted to remind you that the OLF is not to be used as a personal platform to work out these types of problems.
I have removed the persons name in your thread, he is welcome to remove
his name from his thread.

Please do not take this as a smack, it's not, but rather I welcome you to our community!


LanceK

Author:  quigs [ Sat Sep 10, 2011 9:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: wood filler on a new custom made guitar?

Lance, sorry. It was not my intent to hurt the builder nor to use this as a personal attack. I just wanted to find out if any other builders built new guitars with filler. I have got the answers I was looking for. Once again sorry.
LanceK wrote:
Hi Quigs,
Welcome to the OLF, I just wanted to remind you that the OLF is not to be used as a personal platform to work out these types of problems.
I have removed the persons name in your thread, he is welcome to remove
his name from his thread.

Please do not take this as a smack, it's not, but rather I welcome you to our community!


LanceK

Author:  LanceK [ Sat Sep 10, 2011 9:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: wood filler on a new custom made guitar?

Quigs,
I understand, that said you could have gotten your answer with out mentioning
a name..
Again, you are welcome to stay and participate and enjoy!

Author:  quigs [ Sat Sep 10, 2011 9:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: wood filler on a new custom made guitar?

Thanks.

Author:  Mustang_jt [ Sat Sep 10, 2011 9:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: wood filler on a new custom made guitar?

zsthomas wrote:
First of all, the shape and design of this guitar is mine and mine alone. There are luthiers who will claim not to have used any filler on a "painted" guitar. I have built many with minimal or no filler. This particular customer wanted an unusual setup (no neck pickup and no controls) This required using a bondo type filler to modify my current design.


What baffled me (and I think others, when this thread came up and before names were out there) was why anyone would route pickup cavities or control holes and then fill them in? I have seen plenty of blemishes filled in with filler when a guitar is going to be painted, but this is kind of extreme. The guitars on your site look really nice, and the design is unique. Are you using CNC and no way to keep from putting the holes there?

Author:  Mad Raxz [ Sat Sep 10, 2011 11:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: wood filler on a new custom made guitar?

zsthomas wrote:
This particular customer wanted an unusual setup


That´s the whole point of custom guitars! Otherwise you would just get an “off the shelf” ax!

Author:  theguitarwhisperer [ Sun Sep 11, 2011 1:07 am ]
Post subject:  Re: wood filler on a new custom made guitar?

Mad Raxz wrote:
zsthomas wrote:
This particular customer wanted an unusual setup


That´s the whole point of custom guitars! Otherwise you would just get an “off the shelf” ax!


True, but it must also be pointed out that the original poster wanted the rock bottom price. He states that he passed on the original price, forcing the luthier to either forgo the sale (which I would have done) or find some other means of producing a guitar that was worth less money, and therefore less effort. It apparently wasn't worth the money to the builder to make a complete body from scratch, when he seems to have had a finished body already in his shop that he just wanted to complete and get out of his shop and recoup something for for his time and money, and give a good price on in the process. IF I were to have done this, I would have stated beforehand to the customer how the body was going to be produced to meet the price point. This may have been done, but we don't know.

I state again, you usually get what you pay for. If someone says they want a custom guitar but all they seem to really care about is the price, I tell them the same thing. If they want a guitar cheaper than what I'm willing to build, I tell them if they can find one for substantially less, corners will most likely be cut somewhere.

The builder does seem to take pride in his work, and from what I've seen, seems able to produce a quality instrument when it's made worth his while.

I don't think we got the full story.

Author:  theguitarwhisperer [ Sun Sep 11, 2011 1:07 am ]
Post subject:  Re: wood filler on a new custom made guitar?

Double post. WHY!?! WHY?!?!!
[headinwall] AAARGHHH!
(this seems to be happening to me a lot)

Author:  quigs [ Sun Sep 11, 2011 9:15 am ]
Post subject:  Re: wood filler on a new custom made guitar?

Hi guitarwhisperer, He has a body that he builds that is thick as a Les Paul. I wanted to go with that but he said his router was not set up for that. So I said no thanks. He then emailed me and said he really wanted to build this type of guitar and quoted me $1200 for a thinner body. There was no original price, and I never said there was. Before I got his email for $1200, I had got with Bernie Rico and was going to go with him at $3800. So I was not looking for a rock bottom price. If it was not worth his time then he should have said no to the build. The builder is right in his post, the guitar was very nice, it played great and sounded fantastic, but he used filler on a custom made guitar. To me this is unexceptable regardless of how it sounded and played. He is a very honest and nice guy, he built the guitar how he felt was the best way for him and his time. I was just not happy with the filler. In this case it is not "get what you pay for" If not for the filler this guitar was better than anything I have played. The only time I think price should be a factor is your options, wood, hardware, neck through, bolt on or set neck etc. Not the quality of the build, in this case wood filler. I have sent the body and case back to him with no refund.
theguitarwhisperer wrote:
Mad Raxz wrote:
zsthomas wrote:
This particular customer wanted an unusual setup


That´s the whole point of custom guitars! Otherwise you would just get an “off the shelf” ax!


True, but it must also be pointed out that the original poster wanted the rock bottom price. He states that he passed on the original price, forcing the luthier to either forgo the sale (which I would have done) or find some other means of producing a guitar that was worth less money, and therefore less effort. It apparently wasn't worth the money to the builder to make a complete body from scratch, when he seems to have had a finished body already in his shop that he just wanted to complete and get out of his shop and recoup something for for his time and money, and give a good price on in the process. IF I were to have done this, I would have stated beforehand to the customer how the body was going to be produced to meet the price point. This may have been done, but we don't know.

I state again, you usually get what you pay for. If someone says they want a custom guitar but all they seem to really care about is the price, I tell them the same thing. If they want a guitar cheaper than what I'm willing to build, I tell them if they can find one for substantially less, corners will most likely be cut somewhere.

The builder does seem to take pride in his work, and from what I've seen, seems able to produce a quality instrument when it's made worth his while.

I don't think we got the full story.

Author:  theguitarwhisperer [ Sun Sep 11, 2011 1:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: wood filler on a new custom made guitar?

That makes sense. I guess I was just assuming. oops_sign

Author:  theguitarwhisperer [ Sun Sep 11, 2011 4:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: wood filler on a new custom made guitar?

verhoevenc wrote:
Sense? I think it makes NO sense to send back a guitar without any sort of refund!? Now you have no money AND nothing to show for it.
Chris

I meant that it made sense why there was no original price. I just assumed there was, and it was too high.
I wouldn't have sent the guitar back, I would have sold it on eBay.
It still illustrates my point that if you search for the absolute rock bottom price of anybody, corners will be cut somewhere.

Author:  jimmysux [ Sun Sep 11, 2011 4:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: wood filler on a new custom made guitar?

Sorry, but filling the cavity with the filler like that was nothing but pure crap, it's not being honest, and it's not being high quality. The design was not overly complicated at all. A ESP strat shape with a 1/4 cove bit around the edges would produce almost the exact same outer carve, then you can sand the middle of the back and outside edges of the top to produce that same bend in the body, routing for one humbucker and placing a gotoh bridge is not that difficult either. I could reproduce that exact same body (unfinished) in about an 3 hours without using a CNC. And in this case, instead of filling in a cavity with wood putty, that is exactly what I would have done, because that's what's called being honest and professional.
What this builder did was very dishonest, very cheap, and very unprofessional. And I think you could have gotten more for your money. But at the end of the day, that builder put his name on it and sent it out, I can promise you, I would have NEVER done that for one thing, much less put my name on it and sent it out.

I apologize if this a harsh post, but you dont come on here putting out crap like that and trying to blame the customer because he doesnt want more putty put on that and redone, or wants a more "expensive guitar" instead. How about you just sell him exactly what he paid for in the first place.

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