Official Luthiers Forum! :: View topic - questions about finishing order

I've got a dilemma I'm trying to work through and I wonder if anyone can point me in the right direction. I'm getting really close to finishing up my first guitar and I'm trying to figure out which steps to do next. What I'm using is a flame maple top, back and sides on an electric that I was wanting to do a very subtle burst finish on. I want to pop the grain before the color fades happen with black dye but I'm unsure of when to do the dye in relationship to my binding and purfling. I'm using bocote for the binding and b/w/b/w purfling which I'd like to keep natural.

So I don't understand if I should rout my ledges first, then do the dye coat, sand it back down and then install the binding or if I should install the B&P first, seal it with shellac and mix my dye with water so it won't leach into the bocote and fiber.

If I install the binding first and have a missed spot or some open grain that does not get proper shellac coverage it seems like it could be disastrous. If I do the grain pop with the dye first before I level off the B&P I run the risk of sanding too much of the grain pop when I go to level them out.

Can anybody help me with the best way to do this?

Am I just crazy using a natural wood binding and purfling with this type of finish?

I'm wondering too if anyone knows how PRS does their burst finishes while leaving the natural edge as their faux binding. Somehow they're getting a very clean line where it would be very easy to get bleed through.

Thanks!

Author:	John Sonksen [ Mon Jul 02, 2012 9:55 pm ]
Post subject:	questions about finishing order
Alright so I've run into a situation where I don't know what to do next. I screwed up the binding that I put on my guitar last week by being a little to aggressive with my sanding/shaping of the edge and I'm going to rerout it and start again. So it's given me a chance to take a step back and think about what I'm doing as far as my finish is concerned. I'm using bocote for the binding, fiber purfling and the body is flame maple. I want to do a burst finish on the top which I'm planning to spray on after I pop the grain with dye, and while I had planned on putting the binding in first now I'm starting to worry about having the dye bleed into the binding and purfling. I've read on here about using shellac in the binding ledge as a barrier to avoid the bleed over but I'm also concerned that if I do the grain popping first that I'll have problems leveling out my binding without sanding off too much of my color. So it's the order I'm confused about. Do I put the shellac onto the bindings after they've been leveled out and then pop the grain with dye? Seems like the order would then be 1. rout the binding ledges 2. shellac the ledges 3. glue in the binding and purfling 4. level to the edges and top 5. shellac the binding and purfling 6. dye the top, sand back down, repeat #5 if I have to for subsequent dye coats 7. shellac bindings 8. stain base coat 9. seal coat 10. spray burst 11. scrape bindings clean 12. top coats is this right? I know it's a long list of steps but this is the best order I can think of right now. I've got loads of experience doing wood staining and spraying lacquer but I've never used shellac before and I've never done such a technical finish. Any help is most appreciated.

Author:	Chameleon [ Tue Jul 03, 2012 12:20 am ]
Post subject:	Re: questions about finishing order
Now I'll be honest, I've yet to do any sort of binding myself, but I would think your safest bet would be to do your color before you install your binding. I don't know what type of dye you're using but I know water based will get everywhere. Haven't tried the shellac thing but I know the dye will go right through masking tape. So for whatever that's worth.

Author:	muskr@ [ Tue Jul 03, 2012 7:33 am ]
Post subject:	Re: questions about finishing order
What color is the dye? If it's just a light tint coat, you could consider just dyeing and sanding back the bindings too.

Author:	John Sonksen [ Tue Jul 03, 2012 8:54 am ]
Post subject:	Re: questions about finishing order
muskr@ wrote: What color is the dye? If it's just a light tint coat, you could consider just dyeing and sanding back the bindings too. It's black

Author:	John Sonksen [ Wed Jul 04, 2012 1:25 am ]
Post subject:	Re: questions about finishing order
well I guess I'll just have to figure it out on my own, test pieces it is.

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Author:	TheIllicitOne [ Wed Jul 04, 2012 11:48 am ]
Post subject:	questions about finishing order
Yea I'm running into the same question. I want to use wood binding and leave it natural while having my top stained. Don't wanna scratch up the stain, and don't want the color on the wood binding, don't know what to do.

Author:	John Sonksen [ Wed Jul 04, 2012 12:23 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: questions about finishing order
I've decided that my original post was not that clear, the list of steps and everything kind of reads like verbal diarrhea so here's the question posed a little more clearly as I just did over at MIMF. Quote: I've got a dilemma I'm trying to work through and I wonder if anyone can point me in the right direction. I'm getting really close to finishing up my first guitar and I'm trying to figure out which steps to do next. What I'm using is a flame maple top, back and sides on an electric that I was wanting to do a very subtle burst finish on. I want to pop the grain before the color fades happen with black dye but I'm unsure of when to do the dye in relationship to my binding and purfling. I'm using bocote for the binding and b/w/b/w purfling which I'd like to keep natural. So I don't understand if I should rout my ledges first, then do the dye coat, sand it back down and then install the binding or if I should install the B&P first, seal it with shellac and mix my dye with water so it won't leach into the bocote and fiber. If I install the binding first and have a missed spot or some open grain that does not get proper shellac coverage it seems like it could be disastrous. If I do the grain pop with the dye first before I level off the B&P I run the risk of sanding too much of the grain pop when I go to level them out. Can anybody help me with the best way to do this? Am I just crazy using a natural wood binding and purfling with this type of finish? I'm wondering too if anyone knows how PRS does their burst finishes while leaving the natural edge as their faux binding. Somehow they're getting a very clean line where it would be very easy to get bleed through. Thanks!

Author:	John Sonksen [ Wed Jul 04, 2012 11:05 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: questions about finishing order
I think I figured it out. I'm going to finish sanding the profile on my top until it's right. Next I'm going to rout the ledge for the bindings, after which I'll pop the grain with my dye that I think I'm going to mix with water(?) so it won't react to the shellac that I'm going to put on the ledge. At this point I don't think I even need to worry about being very clean with the shellac as whatever overage I get outside the ledge will get sanded back off when I work the binding down to level. I'm going to use CA glue to glue in the binding and purfling and then I'll sand it down to level at the same time that I'm sanding off the majority of the black dye. (I may apply several coats of dye to get the depth of pop before I do the binding). So at this point I should end up with the dye sanded down and ready for my burst stain, and the binding and purfling left natural and ready for finish. Then I should be able to put down my sealer coat before I do the burst. I'll very carefully mask off the binding with frog tape or vinyl auto mask tape and do the burst before doing my coats of lacquer. The only thing I'm not sure is whether I actually need to mix the dye with water, or if alcohol would suffice. I'm using zinnzer bullseye shellac and I'm assuming it's alcohol based. I guess it's not really a problem if the shellac reacts to the dye in the ledge since I'm using CA glue. Does this sound right?

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