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Preferred String Height
http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10123&t=38018		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  QueZee [ Thu Oct 18, 2012 11:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Preferred String Height
Does anyone have an actual preferred “at-the-body” string height? That would be the distance from the body, where you pick the strings, to both "E" strings center. Wondering if that’s the main reason as to why some prefer Gibson over Fender, or vice versa, with respect to playability?
Author:  John Coloccia [ Thu Oct 18, 2012 11:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Preferred String Height
QueZee wrote:
Does anyone have an actual preferred “at-the-body” string height? That would be the distance from the body, where you pick the strings, to both "E" strings center. Wondering if that’s the main reason as to why some prefer Gibson over Fender, or vice versa, with respect to playability?


From the body? Nah. My preferred action (capoed at the 1st fret) is:

- a touch above 1/16" at the 17th fret, low E string
- 1/16" at the high E
- dead straight neck

That said, I love Teles for the simple reason that the middle pickup on Strats are always in the way for me. I play a lot with my fingers (not really hybrid picking....I just use my fingers a lot) and the middle pickup on a Strat is always in the way.

Body to string height is completely irrelevant.
Author:  nyazzip [ Fri Oct 19, 2012 12:16 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Preferred String Height
thats definitely the main reason why i prefer fenders to gibsons, i don't like all that extra air gibson's have under the pick/my fingers. i actually bounce my pick off the pickguard at times, in between strings, for staccato/percussive/funk playing. can't to that on a gibson really. also i fingerpick, and i use my pinky as an anchor reference point on the guitar body itself
edit: i made a little video here to illustrate what i'm talking about. i feel lost on an archtop or gibson

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPeOOTf2EwA
Author:  dzsmith [ Fri Oct 19, 2012 6:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Preferred String Height
nyazzip wrote:
thats definitely the main reason why i prefer fenders to gibsons, i don't like all that extra air gibson's have under the pick/my fingers. i actually bounce my pick off the pickguard at times, in between strings, for staccato/percussive/funk playing. can't to that on a gibson really. also i fingerpick, and i use my pinky as an anchor reference point on the guitar body itself
edit: i made a little video here to illustrate what i'm talking about. i feel lost on an archtop or gibson

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPeOOTf2EwA

Man, I wish I could pick like that! I see and hear your point.
Author:  QueZee [ Fri Oct 19, 2012 6:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Preferred String Height
Cool Vid, makes sense when you see it...

One more question,
When referencing proper string action specs, books-online-whatever, why do they only describe how to setup the 'E' strings at the 1rst and 12th frets? What about the other four strings???

In other words:
How does a builder know how deep to slot the Nut if they don't have any 2cnd-5th string-action specs to go by during a new build? Are you suppose to apply the fretboards radius to those two outer 'E' string heights, once determined, then transfer those numbers onto the Nut? Or, is there a different method?
Hope the question makes sense.
Author:  nyazzip [ Fri Oct 19, 2012 6:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Preferred String Height
i just cut the slots about as low as i can go without buzzing. i've gone too far on a couple nuts and had to redo them, or shim them... but measuring and textbooks aren't too helpful sometimes, you just have to play around and make mistakes
if the action is too high at the nut, it can be really painful on the fingertips, because the strings are so stiff there, at the first fret/open position
i also shim or tilt the bolt on necks in the neck pocket, to get the upper-register frets closer to the strings. i'd get that dialed in before finalizing the nut slot depths
Author:  John Coloccia [ Fri Oct 19, 2012 9:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Preferred String Height
I fret at the 3rd fret and check clearance under the 1st fret. As long as you still have SOME clearance, you're good. You can go as low as you want as long as the string isn't sitting on the fret I was taught to tap on the string over the fret (or just in front of it) and when I can hear it go "ping" the clearance is pretty optimal.
Author:  Chameleon [ Sat Oct 20, 2012 10:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Preferred String Height
nyazzip wrote:
i just cut the slots about as low as i can go without buzzing. i've gone too far on a couple nuts and had to redo them, or shim them... but measuring and textbooks aren't too helpful sometimes, you just have to play around and make mistakes
if the action is too high at the nut, it can be really painful on the fingertips, because the strings are so stiff there, at the first fret/open position
i also shim or tilt the bolt on necks in the neck pocket, to get the upper-register frets closer to the strings. i'd get that dialed in before finalizing the nut slot depths


Here's a tip for when you slot too deep: bone dust and superglue. Works like a charm and you don't have to replace or shim a nut.

I also prefer the body to string height of most Fenders compared to most Gibsons. No fancy playing reasons, just feels better to me.
Author:  dzsmith [ Mon Oct 22, 2012 6:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Preferred String Height
I'm still striving to get achieve the action my beloved 69 custom LP fretless wonder had.
The frets were extremely low and the action was ridiculous. I was forced to sell it 15 years ago for $500. The thing did not have one scratch on it. Never had to adjust the truss rod.
Iv'e played new customs and did not like the feel.
If I can ever emulate my old LP action in a new build, my work will be done.
I pretty much adjust the nut and bridge height as low as possible without buzzing.
Around 1/16" at fret 12.
DZ
Author:  nyazzip [ Mon Oct 22, 2012 7:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Preferred String Height
Quote:
Iv'e played new customs and did not like the feel.

maybe the frets on your old Paul had been crowned so many times they were super low-profile....the frets on a brand new guitar often have too much "meat" on them for my liking
Author:  QueZee [ Mon Oct 22, 2012 9:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Preferred String Height
Does fret height/profile really play a role in string action? I assumed you could achieve the same string action regardless of fret profile.
Author:  nyazzip [ Mon Oct 22, 2012 10:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Preferred String Height
not string action per se, but general "slickness" in feel. its easier to slide over lower bumps than higher bumps, right? makes a big difference how high the crown of the fret presides over the actual fretboard wood
Author:  dzsmith [ Wed Oct 24, 2012 6:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Preferred String Height
I used jumbo frets on a build. The frets were so high it was nearly unplayable. Pressing the string down to the fretboard raised the pitch considerably. I sanded about half of the fret height away to get it playable.
Author:  dzsmith [ Wed Oct 24, 2012 6:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Preferred String Height
nyazzip wrote:
Quote:
Iv'e played new customs and did not like the feel.

maybe the frets on your old Paul had been crowned so many times they were super low-profile....the frets on a brand new guitar often have too much "meat" on them for my liking

Could be, it was a second-hand guitar. I wonder why it was called the Fretless Wonder?
I'm not sure if Gibson called it that, but it was one sweet guitar.
Author:  QueZee [ Wed Oct 24, 2012 7:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Preferred String Height
What Dunlop fretwire size do you guys like? I think Fender and Martin use the 6230(tallish) while Gibson's run 6130(lowish)

Which brings up another curiousity:

How far from the Nuts edge do you like to cut the "E" strings slots?
Many builders seem to use the 4mm/3mm format, where the low "E" is 4mm from the fretboards edge and the high"E" is about 3mm.
Author:  John Coloccia [ Wed Oct 24, 2012 7:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Preferred String Height
dzsmith wrote:
nyazzip wrote:
Quote:
Iv'e played new customs and did not like the feel.

maybe the frets on your old Paul had been crowned so many times they were super low-profile....the frets on a brand new guitar often have too much "meat" on them for my liking

Could be, it was a second-hand guitar. I wonder why it was called the Fretless Wonder?
I'm not sure if Gibson called it that, but it was one sweet guitar.


Many of us referred to them as "Fretless Blunders". Yes, they came like that from the factory. Fret height was something like .025" or .030"....really low....and wide...and flat. Very difficult for most of us to bend on.


re: my favorite fretwire
I'm liking 6105 size, though I use Jescar's equivalent wire. It's medium width, and tall (.055"). If you've ever played a Peavey Wolfgang, that's the wire used.
Author:  dzsmith [ Sat Oct 27, 2012 9:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Preferred String Height
John,
Yep, the frets were low, wide, and flat on my LP. Since I have not seen that guitar in 15 years, my impression today may be different. I would not crown frets to be flat.
Author:  nyazzip [ Sat Oct 27, 2012 11:53 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Preferred String Height
continuing out on this tangent, there are some pics of some low and flat gibson frets being replaced with what look like uncomfortably high frets here....i had never heard of the phrase "fretless wonder" before:
http://www.timeelect.com/lp-fretless.htm
Author:  dzsmith [ Sat Oct 27, 2012 4:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Preferred String Height
nyazzip wrote:
continuing out on this tangent, there are some pics of some low and flat gibson frets being replaced with what look like uncomfortably high frets here....i had never heard of the phrase "fretless wonder" before:
http://www.timeelect.com/lp-fretless.htm

Yeah, I think the guy ruined the guitar putting on those very tall frets.
Thanks for the link - very interesting.
DZ
Author:  jimmysux [ Sat Oct 27, 2012 7:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Preferred String Height
Last guitar I built had super jumbo frets on them. Those were a nightmare, a nightmare to fret, nightmare to level, nightmare to play, never again, but the customer just had to have them. From now on I will only offer medium frets.
Author:  Stuart Gort [ Sun Oct 28, 2012 1:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Preferred String Height
Older Mosrite guitars had the super low fret thing going on as well. Maybe the new ones do too...I don't know. I had an old one all apart here the other day and got a chance to play it thoroughly.

Only certain types of players gravitate toward super high frets....the same types that like scalloped fretboards. It generally requires a very light touch to play a guitar like this. A player with a more aggressive left hand will generally hate high frets and scalloped necks.

Having a light touch and a Fender Strat...I scalloped the fretboard on that guitar. I hate to say this but I believe I notice a distinctly increased tonal clarity after scalloping that fretboard. I have a theory on why this happened but I think it's best to try it again on one of my necks and see if I'm crazy or not. Aside from that it has a unique feel that only a light touch can manage.

I personally hated the Mosrite though it's easy to see how it would feel like silk in your hands if you had a heavy touch. To me it felt as if a LOT more energy and effort was going into playing notes clearly.
Author:  nyazzip [ Sun Oct 28, 2012 4:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Preferred String Height
Quote:
Having a light touch and a Fender Strat...I scalloped the fretboard on that guitar. I hate to say this but I believe I notice a distinctly increased tonal clarity after scalloping that fretboard. I have a theory on why this happened but I think it's best to try it again on one of my necks and see if I'm crazy or not. Aside from that it has a unique feel that only a light touch can manage.


i have a mexican strat neck with a maple board and non-functional truss rod laying around doing nothing, i was sorta thinking about trying a scallop job on it, just out of curiosity. i have always wondered about it. any tips or threads here on doing that...? i would think string tension might affect the neck a lot more with all that material removed
Author:  Stuart Gort [ Sun Oct 28, 2012 5:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Preferred String Height
You don't have to remove much material to get the effect and the 200 lbs. that a set of tuned slinkys pulls on the neck isn't anything to worry about. I used a circular rasp to do the basic shaping and then successive grits of paper to finish it up. I used a wipe on urethane to reseal it.

My main worry was the position markers....wondering how deep they went. It doesn't appear that I got near the full depth of them but I wouldn't vouch for any other guitar. I was taking a risk for sure...and got lucky.

I'll program the cnc to do this on my guitars.
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