Thanks for the insight.
I did not consider the node changes when playing.
I guess everyone's entitled to a few dumb questions.
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| Neck Pickup location at fret 24 http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10123&t=38213 |
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| Author: | dzsmith [ Fri Nov 09, 2012 6:41 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Neck Pickup location at fret 24 |
It looks like LP's may have the upper pole pieces of the neck pickup directly under the second octave (what would be fret 24). Is this an accurate observation, and is it a good thing to locate the pole pieces under the string node? I figured I'd ask the experts rather than risk experimentation. Thanks, DZ |
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| Author: | Chris Pile [ Fri Nov 09, 2012 6:52 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Neck Pickup location at fret 24 |
As soon as you fret a note your point is moot. Even if it's not - a P90 would be located differently than a humbucker, and it still sounds kickass. |
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| Author: | StevenWheeler [ Fri Nov 09, 2012 6:55 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Neck Pickup location at fret 24 |
This one has been argued for years. Funny thing about guitarists, they push down on the strings all up and down the fret board. What effect does that have on the string nodes? Chris was faster! |
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| Author: | John Sonksen [ Fri Nov 09, 2012 7:00 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Neck Pickup location at fret 24 |
The Fender guys will swear its the best place for the pickup to be. This seems to be a hot button issue and I've seen lots of vehement defense of both sides of this question. I don't think it matters that much either way, especially since that node location moves as soon as you fret a string. |
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| Author: | John Sonksen [ Fri Nov 09, 2012 7:04 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Neck Pickup location at fret 24 |
I should link to a discussion I got in over at the Boogie Board. A guy was adamant that this is the sweet spot and that's why 24 fret guitars suck. He linked to a thesis paper some guy wrote as part of his engineering degree as evidence for his opinion, which I then used to disprove his cłaims. |
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| Author: | dzsmith [ Fri Nov 09, 2012 8:13 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Neck Pickup location at fret 24 |
Thanks for the insight. I did not consider the node changes when playing. I guess everyone's entitled to a few dumb questions.
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| Author: | Chris Pile [ Fri Nov 09, 2012 8:52 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Neck Pickup location at fret 24 |
Quote: Thanks for the insight. I did not consider the node changes when playing. I guess everyone's entitled to a few dumb questions. Hey - we've all thought about it at some point. |
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| Author: | theguitarwhisperer [ Sun Nov 11, 2012 11:35 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Neck Pickup location at fret 24 |
These discussions come up and everyone immediately poo-poos the idea that pickup placement can have ANY effect on the tone. BS because the bridge pickup ALWAYS sounds different than the neck pickup no matter where you fret the note. Bridge pickups sound consistently bright as you fret up the neck, neck pickups sound consistently bassier as you fret up the neck. Why can't here be a "sweet spot" for pickup placement? It need not be related to harmonic nodes, and can change per guitar or player, but no reason it can't exist. Also, the placement in relation to open string harmonic node points has significant effect on the volume of the particular open string harmonics located above the pickup, especially for single coil pickups. If located precisely under a harmonic node, the open string harmonic at that point won't ring out through the amp. Even though the node changes, guys who like to use harmonics are bothered by this, and they're always dismayed when I tell them that if they want that particular harmonic they need to switch pickups. It won't matter to most people. |
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| Author: | John Sonksen [ Sun Nov 11, 2012 12:02 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Neck Pickup location at fret 24 |
I'm gonna link to the conversation I had on that other page just because I'm too lazy to type it all out again. I concluded that it does have an impact but not enough to make it a hard and fast rule as to how every guitar should be made, it really depends on what the player wants out of it. Your point about the open harmonics def seems valid, one really cool thing in this discussion was a link to a site where you can plug in scale length, number of frets, and pickup locations to see their effects on pickup output. As to why the bridge and neck pickups sound different, I could be wrong but I thought the bridge pickups are usually wound hotter than neck pickups to deal with the proximity to the end point of the string where the string experiences less displacement than towards the middle of the string. http://forum.grailtone.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=59986 here's a link to the page I talked about http://www.till.com/articles/PickupResponse/ |
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| Author: | theguitarwhisperer [ Mon Nov 12, 2012 11:49 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Neck Pickup location at fret 24 |
I recently made a guitar with 3 Seymour Duncan JB mini hums, strat style. The respective positions sounded as expected. Bridge bright and super midrangey, neck full and mellowey, middle with that sparkly smile we all know and love (and never use heh heh!). The in betweens were quacky as they should be. I haven't read those links yet as my time is limited, but I will later. |
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| Author: | dzsmith [ Tue Nov 13, 2012 7:24 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Neck Pickup location at fret 24 |
theguitarwhisperer wrote: These discussions come up and everyone immediately poo-poos the idea that pickup placement can have ANY effect on the tone. BS because the bridge pickup ALWAYS sounds different than the neck pickup no matter where you fret the note. Bridge pickups sound consistently bright as you fret up the neck, neck pickups sound consistently bassier as you fret up the neck. Why can't here be a "sweet spot" for pickup placement? It need not be related to harmonic nodes, and can change per guitar or player, but no reason it can't exist. Also, the placement in relation to open string harmonic node points has significant effect on the volume of the particular open string harmonics located above the pickup, especially for single coil pickups. If located precisely under a harmonic node, the open string harmonic at that point won't ring out through the amp. Even though the node changes, guys who like to use harmonics are bothered by this, and they're always dismayed when I tell them that if they want that particular harmonic they need to switch pickups. It won't matter to most people. Hmm, I did not think of that. I always attributed the different sound to the particular pickup. I've mixed and matched paickups and the bridge always sounds brighter regardless of the pickup I tried. |
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| Author: | nyazzip [ Tue Nov 13, 2012 8:57 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Neck Pickup location at fret 24 |
bridge pickups don't sound different than neck pickups: only the strings sound different at those locations. close to the anchor points(nut, frets, bridge), the string does not have much amplitude, so the high frequencies dominate, or, another way to look at it, the lower frequencies are squelched. because the amplitude is lower near the bridge, the bridge pickup is wound "hotter" to make up for the loss in volume at this location. this is not an electric-guitar-only phenomenon; just pluck the strings on an acoustic very near the bridge(or nut, or fret, but it is awkward!), then again farther out from the bridge, and the above observations can be easily heard....... |
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| Author: | dzsmith [ Wed Nov 14, 2012 7:04 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Neck Pickup location at fret 24 |
nyazzip wrote: bridge pickups don't sound different than neck pickups: only the strings sound different at those locations. close to the anchor points(nut, frets, bridge), the string does not have much amplitude, so the high frequencies dominate, or, another way to look at it, the lower frequencies are squelched. because the amplitude is lower near the bridge, the bridge pickup is wound "hotter" to make up for the loss in volume at this location. this is not an electric-guitar-only phenomenon; just pluck the strings on an acoustic very near the bridge(or nut, or fret, but it is awkward!), then again farther out from the bridge, and the above observations can be easily heard....... Makes perfect sense. Thanks for the explanation. |
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| Author: | John Sonksen [ Wed Nov 14, 2012 7:53 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Neck Pickup location at fret 24 |
dzsmith wrote: nyazzip wrote: bridge pickups don't sound different than neck pickups: only the strings sound different at those locations. close to the anchor points(nut, frets, bridge), the string does not have much amplitude, so the high frequencies dominate, or, another way to look at it, the lower frequencies are squelched. because the amplitude is lower near the bridge, the bridge pickup is wound "hotter" to make up for the loss in volume at this location. this is not an electric-guitar-only phenomenon; just pluck the strings on an acoustic very near the bridge(or nut, or fret, but it is awkward!), then again farther out from the bridge, and the above observations can be easily heard....... Makes perfect sense. Thanks for the explanation. it does make perfect sense but I have to disagree slightly. If they didn't sound different then how come pickup makers make so many different pickups with all kinds of different properties? I think pickups do sound different and the way they are made to sound different is to change the thickness of the wire, number of winds, the magnets that are used, height. That being said I think nyazzip is spot on as to why there would be a difference in sound even if you used the same pickups in different positions. I still am not sure how much of a difference in sound you'll get between a 22 or 21 fret and a 24 fret. The difference in location between these is possibly less than 3/4", so it's not like you're moving the pickup all the way to the bridge location by adding a couple frets. I dunno, maybe it's something you notice but the one thing I do know is the whole node thing just seems like totally flawed reasoning with anything beyond open notes and harmonics, yet it seems accepted as gospel by a lot of people. |
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| Author: | Dom Regan [ Sat Nov 24, 2012 4:48 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Neck Pickup location at fret 24 |
Hang on, when I play pinched harmonics the location of the harmonic does not change when a note is fretted. Fender strat bridge pickups are slanted so the treble strings pick the highs and bass strings are a bit warmer. Bridge pickups are generally wound hotter to compensate for the lower volume at that position compared to the middle or neck. Clearly it impacts the sound. Having said that, I have never liked the sound of a neck humbucker and replaced it with a single coil on my metal axe and it sounds heaps better. The middle position is a lot chunkier.So it not only the position of the pickup but how wide the magnetic field is, wider on on humbucker and narrower and more concentrated on a single. So its worth thinking in terms of this when placing pickups and not just where the pickup should be. Cheers Dom |
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| Author: | nyazzip [ Sat Nov 24, 2012 5:00 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Neck Pickup location at fret 24 |
Quote: If they didn't sound different then how come pickup makers make so many different pickups with all kinds of different properties? ....because electric guitar players are notorious for dreaming up all kinds of Bull puckie/"mojo", and blaming equipment, and throwing money at the "problem", rather than actually logging in lots of time behind a guitar.....hendrix didn't sound like hendrix because he had access to vintage tubes and vintage guitars and germanium transistors....he just knew how to play guitar pretty well edit: PS my original post did not include the word "puckie" 
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| Author: | sksmith66 [ Fri Nov 30, 2012 2:59 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Neck Pickup location at fret 24 |
theguitarwhisperer wrote: These discussions come up and everyone immediately poo-poos the idea that pickup placement can have ANY effect on the tone. BS because the bridge pickup ALWAYS sounds different than the neck pickup no matter where you fret the note....Why can't here be a "sweet spot" for pickup placement? It need not be related to harmonic nodes, and can change per guitar or player, but no reason it can't exist. I've never seen anyone claim that pickup placement doesn't have any effect on tone. it's just that the claim that the best spot is under a harmonic node isn't logical for the reasons stated above. |
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| Author: | theguitarwhisperer [ Sat Dec 01, 2012 8:46 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Neck Pickup location at fret 24 |
Ah. That was a hyperbolic statement. |
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