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3-way toggle switch advise
http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10123&t=41733		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Chris Pile [ Mon Oct 21, 2013 10:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 3-way toggle switch advise
Is the Switchcraft stuff in the old Gibsons working all these decades later?
If yes, then there's your answer.
Author:  klooker [ Tue Oct 22, 2013 5:40 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 3-way toggle switch advise
I buy & sell switches for my day job & I suspect that nobody is buying at a high enough quantity to offer better pricing. Or maybe a few are buying at that high of quantity but don't have to offer better pricing because nobody else is.

Kevin Looker
Author:  Chris Pile [ Tue Oct 22, 2013 11:15 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 3-way toggle switch advise
My mother can't tell me how an internal combustion engine works, but she can still drive a car.

The difference in appearance is not the point... Switchcraft stuff is good, and lasts forever.
It's worth the extra bucks if you are building (or repairing) for the long haul.
Author:  B. Howard [ Tue Oct 22, 2013 11:16 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 3-way toggle switch advise
Can you post s link to what you are comparing to? I am confused at the 6-32 thread for one.....
Author:  nyazzip [ Tue Oct 22, 2013 12:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 3-way toggle switch advise
plated contacts and a nice looking nut are about the only thing I can think of that would make one switch any better than another- after all it is going in to a guitar where it will see minimal use, and not a spacecraft console where lives and billions of dollars depend on milspec components...I'd be inclined to use the $4 option...
Author:  B. Howard [ Tue Oct 22, 2013 3:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 3-way toggle switch advise
Filippo Morelli wrote:
Brian, I ended up going straight to the source to have a discussion with the technical folks.

This Switchcraft switch is superior to the other switch I was considering, in terms of quality.
Filippo


Well don't keep us waiting.....what makes them superior?
Author:  Mike Baker [ Tue Oct 22, 2013 10:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 3-way toggle switch advise
I like Switchcraft because the switching is more "positive", for lack of a better word. I have used StewMac's 3 way, before they sold Switchcraft, and I've used other cheaper ones. On the SM switch the toggle was easy to fall back into the center position, unlike the Switchcraft, which feels more solidly locked in each position. But you can feel the SM one is decent quality, and having pointed out it's one shortcoming, it's absolute minimum for me.
Some of the cheaper ones are lighter, and while some have a very solid feel as far as the positions you switch them to(meaning they stay put until you switch them), when you actually switch through the different positions you can feel that they are lighter duty, and probably won't last as long. Many of them are also noisier electronically, get scratchy faster, etc.
So far as construction goes, I couldn't get into details, but I know a good switch when I hold it in my hand and operate it. There is a difference.
Author:  dzsmith [ Wed Oct 23, 2013 6:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 3-way toggle switch advise
Mike Baker wrote:
I like Switchcraft because the switching is more "positive", for lack of a better word. I have used StewMac's 3 way, before they sold Switchcraft, and I've used other cheaper ones. On the SM switch the toggle was easy to fall back into the center position, unlike the Switchcraft, which feels more solidly locked in each position. But you can feel the SM one is decent quality, and having pointed out it's one shortcoming, it's absolute minimum for me.
Some of the cheaper ones are lighter, and while some have a very solid feel as far as the positions you switch them to(meaning they stay put until you switch them), when you actually switch through the different positions you can feel that they are lighter duty, and probably won't last as long. Many of them are also noisier electronically, get scratchy faster, etc.
So far as construction goes, I couldn't get into details, but I know a good switch when I hold it in my hand and operate it. There is a difference.

Sounds like a comparison test is in order...
Author:  Mike Baker [ Wed Oct 23, 2013 7:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 3-way toggle switch advise
dzsmith wrote:
Mike Baker wrote:
I like Switchcraft because the switching is more "positive", for lack of a better word. I have used StewMac's 3 way, before they sold Switchcraft, and I've used other cheaper ones. On the SM switch the toggle was easy to fall back into the center position, unlike the Switchcraft, which feels more solidly locked in each position. But you can feel the SM one is decent quality, and having pointed out it's one shortcoming, it's absolute minimum for me.
Some of the cheaper ones are lighter, and while some have a very solid feel as far as the positions you switch them to(meaning they stay put until you switch them), when you actually switch through the different positions you can feel that they are lighter duty, and probably won't last as long. Many of them are also noisier electronically, get scratchy faster, etc.
So far as construction goes, I couldn't get into details, but I know a good switch when I hold it in my hand and operate it. There is a difference.

Sounds like a comparison test is in order...

I would welcome the results of a comparison between a large variety of these types of switches. I've never used them, but would love to hear opinions on these switches
http://www.guitarfetish.com/USA-Style-Les-Paul-Toggle-Switch-Chrome_p_778.html
from anyone who's ever used them. Good price, but I'm dubious, as I think they are probably the cheap ones as used in the really low end Epiphones, which I would run long and hard from.
Author:  Chris Pile [ Thu Oct 24, 2013 4:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 3-way toggle switch advise
Look, Switchcraft has a sterling reputation and track record of long-lasting performance.
They seldom change their specs, materials, or manufacturing methods.
They don't have to when they have achieved superiority in the marketplace.

Doesn't matter why, or what they look like.
Analyzing the competition, or endless comaparos is useless.

Good stuff is ALWAYS worth the extra money - for good reason.
Author:  dzsmith [ Thu Oct 24, 2013 6:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 3-way toggle switch advise
Chris Pile wrote:
Look, Switchcraft has a sterling reputation and track record of long-lasting performance.
They seldom change their specs, materials, or manufacturing methods.
They don't have to when they have achieved superiority in the marketplace.

Doesn't matter why, or what they look like.
Analyzing the competition, or endless comaparos is useless.

Good stuff is ALWAYS worth the extra money - for good reason.

Yeah, but $19.00 + shipping for a freaking switch?
I normally use the mechanical sealed switches, but I need to replace an LP type switch on a Saga kit. The switch and the jack fell apart in less than a month. I mean they really fell apart into pieces! I'm going with the GF switch, I'll let you know if I'm disgusted with it.
I'm giving away the Saga kit so I reckon I should put it into somewhat working order.
BTW, Bourns Audio Pro pots are pieces of crap: on one pot the wiper was open and the nut was so thin it could no be tightened.
Author:  Mike Baker [ Thu Oct 24, 2013 6:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 3-way toggle switch advise
dzsmith wrote:
Chris Pile wrote:
I normally use the mechanical sealed switches, but I need to replace an LP type switch on a Saga kit. The switch and the jack fell apart in less than a month. I mean they really fell apart into pieces! I'm going with the GF switch, I'll let you know if I'm disgusted with it.

Definitely interested in your opinion. Thanks.
Author:  Chris Pile [ Thu Oct 24, 2013 6:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 3-way toggle switch advise
Quote:
Yeah, but $19.00 + shipping for a freaking switch?



Go back and read my last line:
"Good stuff is ALWAYS worth the extra money - for good reason".
Author:  Chris Pile [ Thu Oct 24, 2013 11:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 3-way toggle switch advise
Quote:
stop derailing the thread.


My point is this: this thread has no point.

Switchcraft is the best. Period. It is what it is.
All the rest are mere shadows and wannabe's.

I'll stop derailing the thread now.
Author:  Sandywood [ Fri Oct 25, 2013 7:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 3-way toggle switch advise
If I were interested in finding out why I'd compare specifications
of the comparable switches.

Here are the spec's for what Switchcraft makes claim of "premium grade"
for the 12000 series:

Electrical
Contact Ratings: Fine silver contacts rated at 3A, 300W maximum AC non-inductive load standard. Other contacts available
Leakage Resistance: 1,000 MW or greater
Dielectric Strength: 250 VDC

Material
Frame: Steel, plated
Bushing and Shaft: Copper alloy, plated
Springs: Copper alloy
Knob: Black molded thermoplastic
Mounting Hardware: Knurled copper alloy locknut T10711, supplied. P10531 hex locknut, special order
Insulation: Rigid plastic spacers with plastic tubing through stack. Rigid plastic and/or thermoplastic lifters. Thermoplastic cam on actuator end

So what are spec's for your "(6-32) stuff" ?

I did contact Switchcraft and asked if they would help me understand by explaining what exactly
makes them "Premium".
I'll post what I receive, if anything.


From Ray Edison at Switchcraft in response to my question; "What exactly makes Switchcraft switches "premium" ?";

Mike - They are made in the same American factory that has been making them for the past 67 years using the same materials. We never change or degrade the way we make the product and all parts are tested before they leave the factory. Most of our switches are still hand made.

Thanks for the inquiry.


So I guess 67 years of assembling with "proven materials of choice" by hand and testing is what one is paying for...not to mention made in the USA.
Author:  Stuart Gort [ Fri Oct 25, 2013 2:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 3-way toggle switch advise
There it is, Filippo....probably the best info you'll get on the Switchcraft switch.

It doesn't quite cover Todd's list of factors, and Todd's list is comprehensive, but I kind of doubt anyone here will have done the amount of research that answers everything.

Awesome response, Michael.

Now...finding this data on OTHER switches in order to make a direct comparison? My guess is...one would be lucky to get as far as Michael did with the Switchcraft products.

Hate to say it but this may be one of those situations where you pay the extra money and assume it's worth it. It's a valid enough question to ask why the switch is better...but it's unanswerable unless you find the exact right guy for every switch...usually the original designer.

I'd rather ask other unanswerable questions....like "where's the nearest buried treasure?". :)
Author:  Sandywood [ Fri Oct 25, 2013 6:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 3-way toggle switch advise
Thank you Stuart.

I just wound some HB's and replaced everything in a Korean made Tele style
and used CTS pots, Switchcraft jack and Mojotone switch.

I didn't want to spring for the Switchcraft switch and had used a Mojotone "Gibson style" previously
and it "felt" right and appeared to be well made- it was $8.00. I don't know who makes them.
I know the guitarist so I'll probably know how it holds up. Hey, it came with a tip too! LOL.
(I did have to ream out the pot holes-switch fit fine)

I'll also say, I was sure enough impressed with the guitar. Very well made and a very
nice fret job.
Mahogany with wonderful Flame Maple top but personally I don't like that thick finish.
Author:  cactus [ Fri Nov 01, 2013 5:31 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 3-way toggle switch advise
Hi.
I used to work for a microphone manufacturer and all of our components were built by local machine shops. When we were having a switch engineered, we basically reverse engineered some old thing and took it to our stamping guy. He came by the shop to discuss the switch and brought boxes full of different types of metals. There were so many different types of copper alone, and I believe we ended up going with beryllium copper for the main spring components. It had a long life expectancy, a certain "snap" to it, and I believe it was a good bit more expensive. But there is an awful lot of option in putting a switch together. The dielectric properties of the plastic, boiling temp of plastic, stiffness of metals, length of the lever. All the switches that we saw coming from China could only be soldered a few times before the contacts melted out of the plastics and you were left with a dead switch. Also the main part of the switch was tumbled for us so the nut threads on nicely. The imports were usually quite rough on the first few installs.

As for the features that made a switch "better," for us there was 1) Feel, 2) Dielectric property, 3) Life expectancy, 4) High reuse #. Conductivity (materials/plating) wasn't a measurable advantage. And these 80-yr old machine shop guys can blow you away with all they know and how every component in a switch is special. Most of the effort went into the switch feeling right, though, and having a pleasant sound.
We had plenty of parts coming in from overseas that reminded us how important a quality switch is.

I bought a handful of Stew Mac 3-ways, sight unseen, and they haunt me still. Breathe on them wrong and they snap into the center position. I swear I can make it switch if i hit the bridge with my palm.
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