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Pickup placement
http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10123&t=41906		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  absrec [ Mon Nov 11, 2013 6:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Pickup placement
I was just reading this interesting thread on the telecaster forum. It is regarding a formula for pickup placement. However, when I did the measurements my pickups ended up in weird places. For instance, my neck pickup's ring would have invaded the 22nd fret area. The bridge pickup seemed way too far forward. I checked my 335 and the bridge pickup was much closer to the bridge on that. Don't know if that had something to do with it being a semihollow but I figured I would mention it. Also at some point in the thread, somebody mentioned something about P-90s typically being closer to the bridge than humbuckers.

Has anyone else ever tried this method? Just wondering how others are approaching this.

http://www.tdpri.com/forum/tele-home-de ... ridge.html
Author:  Deserter [ Mon Nov 11, 2013 7:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Pickup placement
Personally I always try to place my neck pickup at the point where the 24th fret would be, as I normally fit humbuckers I try to get the screws at this line. As for the bridge pickup I've always placed it literally at the bridge, well so the ring is about 10mm from the bridge anyway.


~Nil carborundum illegitemi~
Author:  dzsmith [ Mon Nov 11, 2013 7:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Pickup placement
Aaron,
I read the referenced article and the "aspect ratio" makes no sense whatever to me.
Of course, I'm no rocket scientist.
I like to cram the bridge pickup as close to the bridge as I can and the neck pickup as close to the fretboard as I can.
If I was trying to replicate a guitar, I'd replicate the pickup locations.
This is an interesting topic and I look forward to being educated.
Thanks,
Dan
Author:  absrec [ Mon Nov 11, 2013 7:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Pickup placement
One of the reasons this interests me is because one of my prototypes is a single-cut carve top (not mentioning any names here 8-) ) and the bridge humbucker is so much brighter than I've heard on other guitars of this type. It sounds really cool actually but different. I was wondering if it was because it was perhaps too close to the bridge. You both are saying that you put the bridge pickup as close to the bridge as you can so now I'm really confused. Mainly because my placement, while I'm sure it's not exact, is pretty close to the typical place for this design. Hmm...
Author:  absrec [ Mon Nov 11, 2013 7:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Pickup placement
dzsmith wrote:
Aaron,
I read the referenced article and the "aspect ratio" makes no sense whatever to me.

I think what he is saying basically supports the node/anti-node theory that has been explained in several different articles throughout the internet. He's just approaching it from another angle. He apparently found the same ratio of spacing on various guitars of different scale lengths. I'm just wondering where he found a 21-fret Les Paul. :P
Author:  dzsmith [ Mon Nov 11, 2013 8:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Pickup placement
Aaron,
I dig a screeching bright bridge pickup. Could it be the pickup you used?
I love to play LP's and I love the sound of a bright twangy Tele.
Maybe I'll make a "les tele" or would it be a "more Paul"?
I'm considering hacking out the middle of a guitar to make a pickup test bed to explore PU locations, height, and wiring.
I made a Walnut guitar that is so heavy I cannot really play it, so it's a good candidate.
Dan
Author:  absrec [ Mon Nov 11, 2013 9:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Pickup placement
dzsmith wrote:
Aaron,
I dig a screeching bright bridge pickup. Could it be the pickup you used?

I wouldn't say it's screeching. It does have a good top end and a lot of definition. This particular one has a Duncan '59 which has a good bit of definition in the first place. I use to have a set in a Les Paul studio that I had stolen. I loved them in that guitar and they sound great in this one too. The only things that have changed would be the guitar itself. One way this "LP" differs from the studio I had is the neck. The body is a little thicker but the neck is a big fat boat. I always hear people talking about how much they like fat necks so I decided to try it. Makes me wonder if the extra wood transfers more vibrations up to the headstock?

Anyway, it could be more a product of the build than just the placement of the pickups. I guess that's what I'm trying to figure out. I sometimes feel like the bridge pickup has more of that single coil "cut" to it than it should. And yes... I checked the wiring to make sure it wasn't coil tapped.
Author:  nyazzip [ Tue Nov 12, 2013 3:35 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Pickup placement
i'd worry less about placement, as that is pretty limited already on most guitars that have 19+ frets....and worry more about pickup parameters, such as: humbucker vs. single coil, DC resistance, alnico/ceramic pole pieces, etc....however i am one of the few(seemingly) strat people who likes the middle pickup position, which many strat players seem to avoid like the plague. unfortunately pickups get in the way of playing, so that is another consideration- you generally need to have a bit of depth under the plucking area
Author:  Stuart Gort [ Tue Nov 12, 2013 10:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Pickup placement
The only thing to keep in mind with placement is to understand that bridge pickups are generally hotter because the vibrating string has less overall amplitude and a smaller fundamental to harmonics ratio as it gets closer to the bridge. So getting it as close to the bridge as possible is not necessarily the objective if getting too close reduces the output to the point that the set doesn't balance anymore.

The other consideration is to get as much distance as possible between the two pickups for the greatest tonal variation. A 1/4" difference on the neck pickup isn't going to make an easily identifiable tonal change.

Placing a pickup based on some kind of contrived "harmonic" formula is silly on a fretted instrument.
Author:  absrec [ Tue Nov 12, 2013 10:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Pickup placement
Filippo Morelli wrote:
I read through all of this and honestly didn't understand how any of it made sense. Now this is more likely to do with me than the content ... but the moment you fret a string you change its length and thus its harmonic locations. So how does this work? What did I miss?

The only thing I understood is the comment, on the thread, that went something like ... the more the neck pickup is closer to the bridge pickup the more bridgy it sounds ...

Filippo

I hear ya... I'm just trying to gain a better understanding of the concepts of pickup placement in general. What I DO know is that -

1 - the bridge pickup is the weakest position acoustically

2 - conversely, the neck is the strongest

3 - along with the volume differences come a tonal difference as well

4 - Pickup placement is a matter of personal taste, blah blah blah

Now... Without building 100 guitars for the sole purpose of finding the ideal pickup placement for the guitars I build, it would be helpful to have some knowledge of the physics behind it so as to be able to narrow it down a bit. I often think about buildling one with some sort of sliding harness for the pickups so I can hear the effects of different positions in real time. Just don't know what having a large cavity in that area would introduce tone-wise. Probably nothing but it's hard to do comparisons on something like that.
Author:  absrec [ Tue Nov 12, 2013 10:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Pickup placement
Stuart Gort wrote:
Placing a pickup based on some kind of contrived "harmonic" formula is silly on a fretted instrument.

I don't doubt that. It's not so much a harmonic formula I'm thinking in terms of as a proximity to the bridge. Yes, we fret notes and it blows the node theory out of the water. However, placing the pickup still has an overall effect on tone regardless of where the strings is fretted. That's the only reason the "aspect ratio" thing sort of made sense. Clearly, no one here thinks it holds any water. :)
Author:  dzsmith [ Wed Nov 13, 2013 7:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Pickup placement
If I'm not mistaken, Strats used to have identical pickups in all three locations, so placement alone created the unique sounds.
I still don't know how to properly set the pickup heights. I guess if I had a good amp (and good hearing) I could discern some differences.
Ed Roman has a strong opinion on his website about the node theory and how all guitars should have 24 frets to put the neck pickup in the sweet spot. I certainly do not agree with it and really, does anyone ever fret the 24the fret?
Thanks for great info,
Dan
Author:  dzsmith [ Wed Nov 13, 2013 7:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Pickup placement
Stuart Gort wrote:
The only thing to keep in mind with placement is to understand that bridge pickups are generally hotter because the vibrating string has less overall amplitude and a smaller fundamental to harmonics ratio as it gets closer to the bridge. So getting it as close to the bridge as possible is not necessarily the objective if getting too close reduces the output to the point that the set doesn't balance anymore.

The other consideration is to get as much distance as possible between the two pickups for the greatest tonal variation. A 1/4" difference on the neck pickup isn't going to make an easily identifiable tonal change.

Placing a pickup based on some kind of contrived "harmonic" formula is silly on a fretted instrument.

Ah, so that's why bridge pickups are generally wound a tad hotter.
I mistakenly swapped a pair and wondered what the heck was going on.
Author:  nyazzip [ Wed Nov 13, 2013 8:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Pickup placement
Quote:
does anyone ever fret the 24the fret?

dave gilmour would, if he ever had access to one. but thankfully he was a strat player
Author:  dzsmith [ Wed Nov 13, 2013 8:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Pickup placement
nyazzip wrote:
Quote:
does anyone ever fret the 24the fret?

dave gilmour would, if he ever had access to one. but thankfully he was a strat player

Right on, but he has magic fingers!
Author:  alan stassforth [ Wed Nov 13, 2013 9:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Pickup placement
I think this is another over thought aspect of guitar bldg.
Nothing wrong with that!
I do it all the time!
I've found it makes no difference with placing on the harmonic, off the harmonic,
or whatever.
Wide as possible makes sense to me.
As far as height,
fret on the highest fret,
raise until it doesn't buzz.
Author:  James T [ Fri Nov 22, 2013 9:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Pickup placement
I agree with the separation space of pickups having the biggest effect . Using only 24 fret necks there is a bit less room so, they typically go as far apart as space allows. With the 3 pickup models , especially with PAF's it's a tight squeeze.
Author:  Paul Eisen [ Sat Nov 23, 2013 1:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Pickup placement
Actually, I read that when David Gilmour needed more frets (think the third Money solo), he put down the strat and picked up an Explorer.

--Paul
Author:  John Sonksen [ Sun Nov 24, 2013 11:04 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Pickup placement
Nah, when he needed that 24th fret he'd just bend up to it from the 12th fret
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