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Fretwork frustration
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Author:  absrec [ Tue Jan 19, 2021 7:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Fretwork frustration
Happy New Year to everyone here at OLF. I haven't posted in a while but I've been reading quite a bit through the archives.

I've decided to try and take my fretwork to the next level last year. I figured, being quarantined, I had plenty of free time. Well, here we are in 2021 and it just seems like it's getting worse. After 30+ years I've gotten more particular as a player and I suppose that doesn't help.

My main frustration is that I will level frets on a neck and my straight edge(s) all say that everything is true and level. I then crown, polish and string up the guitar only to be dissapointed by buzzing on the low E&A. Now... it's not the kind of buzzing where the tone is completely gone but it's enough to where I can hear it coming through the amplifier. Calling it buzz might not be fair. It's more like rattle. My preferred setup is a hair over 4/64 to a hair under 4/64 so I don't think that's unreasonable. I constantly hear people talk about relief but that concept has never made any sense to me. It seems to create more buzz/rattle or whatever you want to call it. Especially when playing over the apex of the truss rod (5th to 7th fret). The least buzz I can ever achieve seems to be with the neck dead straight or maybe .001"-.002" of relief.

After reading some threads here on OLF, many people seemed to agree that fallaway is the cure for this. I've built with fallaway before and I never found it to make much of a difference but it's been a minute so I though I'd give it another shot. I've also only ever used about .005"-.007" and the threads here on OLF seemed to feel like .010"-.015" was more like it. Given that, I built what ended up as ~ .012" of fallaway into the fretboard of my latest build attempt which is a bolt-on strat-style neck. So... flat from nut to 12th fret (1st plane) and .012" of fallaway from the 12th to 22nd frets (2nd plane). All the usual prep (cleaning slots, beveling the mouths of the slots, checking slot depth, etc.) was done. Frets were pressed in and CA glue was used. The height was checked with one of my height gauges to confirm they were seated fully. I overbent them slightly as well and used a 7.25" caul followed by a 10" caul. I ended up having to use a hammer in more than a few spots to get them all seated and there were a few that just refused to go the last couple of thousandths. I took note and spot leveled those areas prior to final leveling. Luckily, I built over .020" of relief into this neck because the fret tangs compressed this one more than usual.

Anyway... after leveling, polishing and all that, I strung the guitar up only to find the same problem. On this particular attempt, since I now have >.010" fallaway in my upper frets, it's terribly uncomfortable to play up high. It feels like I have to press down too far and my fingers are on the verge of getting caught under the strings sometimes.

I made a few attempts to fix these issues. I put the guitar up on the bench to do some evaluation. I thought maybe I could find a high fret or two with the fret rocker. I found several so I leveled those out. Playability didn't improve either. So I thought maybe there was something happening when it was under string load so I used the long Stewmac 18" Fretbar to go over it a couple times. And then the short one for the "tongue" area. All with the strings on. I played it a bit over the next day or two and it still wasn't great. So, I decided to see if I could find anything else. Went back to the fret rocker and found a bunch more high areas.

To make a long story even longer, this had been my process on a couple of projects this year. Neither of which I'm happy with. What I don't get is how my straightedge seems to tell me one thing and the fret rocker tells me another. Furthermore, I can go over an area of the frets and the marker gets removed but the straight edge will tell me that some of the frets in that area are still low. I've tried moving the neck support around, using extremely light to no pressure, strategically adjusting the truss rod and anything I can think of that seemed in anyway justified. I just keep eventually grinding the frets on every neck I touch down to nothing, pulling them and starting over. The good news is I'm getting good at removing frets.

I suppose I need some words of advice on what I could look into so I can break out of my fret-funk. Or maybe someone could say they've been there and perhaps share how they got past it. Its clear that my technique sucks at the moment. Now that I've admitted and fully acknowledged that, I'm hoping to find the missing piece(s) to the puzzle soon.

Thanks,
-Aaron

* Note - Straight edges and leveling beams are mostly Stewmac. My 24" straight edge is a Starrett. I have a couple other small ones that I trued up using the 24" leveling beam. .010-.046 strings are what I use on the guitars mentioned above.
Author:  Pmaj7 [ Tue Jan 19, 2021 9:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fretwork frustration
As far as your numbers go, what is the fretboard radius?? Scale?

There were many things in your description that jumped out at me but I will just address two of them:

The fact that the frets were compressing the neck and you put 20 thou of relief (in the fretboard? Frets?) to compensate is a little bothersome. Just sounds like that could introduce some weirdness. And how did you then level the frets with that much relief built in?

Also, the fact that you had many frets popping up several times is problematic. They all need to be Rock solid to start with. I have had that problem on refrets, I usually end up holding each fret down while the glue sets.

Pat
Author:  absrec [ Wed Jan 20, 2021 4:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Fretwork frustration
Pmaj7 wrote:
As far as your numbers go, what is the fretboard radius?? Scale?

Radius is 10” Scale is 25.5”
Pmaj7 wrote:
The fact that the frets were compressing the neck and you put 20 thou of relief (in the fretboard? Frets?) to compensate is a little bothersome. Just sounds like that could introduce some weirdness. And how did you then level the frets with that much relief built in?

Fret tangs compress the fretboard on any neck so relief is built in to compensate. If not, you end up with a neck that is already in a backbow without any tension on the rod. When the leveling is performed, the truss rod is tightened to bring the neck straight.
Pmaj7 wrote:
Also, the fact that you had many frets popping up several times is problematic. They all need to be Rock solid to start with. I have had that problem on refrets, I usually end up holding each fret down while the glue sets.

Do you mean popping out of the slot? Like I said, the tangs all fit tightly in the slots and I filled each slot with CA prior to pressing them in. I usually leave the press clamped down for a minute or two while the glue sets up. I will never claim to be 100% sure but as far as I can tell, they were solid. I have dealt with loose frets in the past and have seen the issues they can cause so it’s one of the things I’m always looking out for.
Author:  Barry Daniels [ Wed Jan 20, 2021 1:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fretwork frustration
It sounds to me like you are overworking the job. Some of your efforts are probably making the situation worse. Using a fret rocker and then doing spot leveling is not something I ever do when performing a full refret or even a full fret dress. It takes me about an hour to level, dress and buff the frets. Do the basic steps and then stop.

The buzzing you are hearing is probably not fret buzz but nut or saddle issues.
Author:  Chris Pile [ Wed Jan 20, 2021 3:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fretwork frustration
To the OP, your real problem is not believing in or understanding relief.

On your Starrett "straightedge".... If it has markings on it, it's NOT a straightedge. It's a scale (for measuring). Straightedge tools have NO markings. They are simply a ground edge on a piece of metal to determine flatness.

Contrary to StewMac and popular belief - Fret Rockers are USELESS. They measure a small area of the fretboard, when you need to determine the condition of the whole fretboard. What you are doing is like looking through binoculars, when you are missing the entire landscape of the fretboard.

Your wrong assumptions are getting in the way of doing a thorough and complete job.
Author:  rbuddy [ Wed Jan 20, 2021 7:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fretwork frustration
Comes a point in most shops where you don't know what's straight anymore or how long it is.

NEVER miss an opportunity to upgrade TOOLS!. My choice was a Starrett #387-24, and wanting something to test both straightness and graduations, it fit the bill. It costs twice now what it cost then. (Check ebay) But it is graduated in 32nds and is straight to within 0.0002". It is regulated to confirming the straightness and graduations of all the other measuring tools in my shop so I know what to grab for a specific purpose.

So Starrett makes a number of "straight edges" and some with graduations and they go a long way to building confidence, especially in your tools.

I have other "straight edges", mostly imports, and some with graduations too. But none of them promise to, or live up to the Starrett specs.

Is that kind of accuracy needed in guitar work? Probably not, but if you are having problems it is nice to know what in your shop is really straight and what isn't. You'll probably be surprised.

Even a Starrett B824-24 Combination Square blade out performed most of the import "straight edges" I've put to the test.

Love my Starretts, even when they win all the arguments. Like a good friends.

edit, Forgot to say maybe your action goal of 4/64 is a little too low for playing style, where is it measured?
Author:  absrec [ Wed Jan 20, 2021 8:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fretwork frustration
Chris Pile wrote:
To the OP, your real problem is not believing in or understanding relief.

On your Starrett "straightedge".... If it has markings on it, it's NOT a straightedge. It's a scale (for measuring). Straightedge tools have NO markings. They are simply a ground edge on a piece of metal to determine flatness.

Contrary to StewMac and popular belief - Fret Rockers are USELESS. They measure a small area of the fretboard, when you need to determine the condition of the whole fretboard. What you are doing is like looking through binoculars, when you are missing the entire landscape of the fretboard.

Your wrong assumptions are getting in the way of doing a thorough and complete job.

The Starrett has no markings. It is a 24”, certified to be straight to +/- .0005 per foot straightedge. It has taken some hits over the years which is why I recently purchased the Stewmac combo thing. It seems that it has not changed that much so now I have one more option in my straightedge collection.

I have considered the possibility that I am overthinking it. I just remember playing other guitars over the years that played cleaner and I’m trying to achieve that.

The thing about relief is that when you give the neck say... .005” from 1-12. The strings get higher and need to come down to a comfortable playing height. At which point, playing areas around the 5th-7th fret, the rest of the string now has frets 9-14 closer to it. More if it there’s no fall away. I hear and feel those notes dying out earlier than with a straight neck. I have also found that more tension on the rod makes for a more responsive guitar overall. I would love to understand how it can be beneficial, I just don’t. I do understand I’m in the minority. Please educate if you feel so inclined and I promise to listen.
Author:  slightreturn [ Mon Apr 18, 2022 12:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fretwork frustration
absrec wrote:
I then crown, polish and string up the guitar only to be dissapointed by buzzing on the low E&A. Now... it's not the kind of buzzing where the tone is completely gone but it's enough to where I can hear it coming through the amplifier. Calling it buzz might not be fair. It's more like rattle. My preferred setup is a hair over 4/64 to a hair under 4/64 so I don't think that's unreasonable. I constantly hear people talk about relief but that concept has never made any sense to me. It seems to create more buzz/rattle or whatever you want to call it. Especially when playing over the apex of the truss rod (5th to 7th fret). The least buzz I can ever achieve seems to be with the neck dead straight or maybe .001"-.002" of relief.


"Buzzing on the Low E and A."

That's the issue! And something I've never seen anyone discuss in depth, or at all. The Low E and A strings need more relief than the other strings to have enough room to vibrate without crashing into the frets. Really glad to see this thread as I've had a similar frustration for years and never found a satisfactory answer.

I've played many guitars, including custom built guitars, that all have this issue to some extent or another. The problem is compounded by the fact that, on typical string sets, the Low E and A strings are lower tension than the rest of the strings.

When playing hard enough, some level of buzz on the Low E (more so than the A) is inevitable. One of the issues here is not being able to communicate sound via text -- I know exactly what you're talking about, and it isn't a dead fret or anything out of level. You do a perfect job, and everything is completely level, but it's still having this issue. As you said: more a rattle than a buzz.

It's one of the unspoken issues of guitar. The low tension of the low strings, and the big size that causes them to vibrate in a much wider arc, which makes them buzz far more easily than the other strings.

That's why your D, G, B and E strings all sound perfect when you leveled the whole board exactly the same way, but the Low E and A strings are buzzing. They're bigger, they're looser, and they vibrate in a much wider arc than the other strings.

This is why nowadays I carve relief into the frets themselves *only under the Low E and A strings,* so the Low E and A strings have more relief compared to the D, G, B and E strings.

Lately I've been using a Rectify Master Katana to do this. But before I owned one of those, I'd put the neck into a slight back bow and use a flat leveling beam *only* on the Low E and A string side. Then, when it's brought back to straight, the rest of the strings feel nice and low and comfortable, but the Low E and A have relief.

After over 15 years of doing repairs as well as compulsively working on my own guitars, and over 18 years of playing guitar every single day, I've also come to prefer necks that are dead straight, or .001" or .002" relief at the most. So I feel you there for sure! I not only find them easier and more enjoyable to play, but they seem to buzz less. There's someone else online who actually tested this and did seem to find that straight necks tended to have less buzz than necks with relief, all other things being equal.

My experience is that's true, and more so than that, the Low E and A are the only strings I ever have had issues with when it comes to buzz/rattle. Traditional fret leveling with the strings off, or leveling under tension with the strings on -- I've tried it all, and either method works great, but the Low E and A are stubborn and will be the only ones buzzing even when the other 4 strings are perfect with buttery low action. And that action feels perfect on the other strings!

The action and playability just feel phenomenal on the rest of the strings -- putting relief into the neck to relieve some of the buzzing on the Low E and A, at the expense of the playability of the rest of the strings, is a compromise. Not only that, but it doesn't help at all in my experience. One of the worst cases of this I ever saw was on a 7 string. The Low B string was rattling/buzzing like crazy and no amount of leveling was helping it at all. I ended up using a slightly heavier string, and carving some relief into the frets *only* under the Low B string. The customer was very happy. It wasn't perfect, but it reduced it from horrible, unplayable buzzing, to a rattle.

On a non-multi scale 7 string, you're just going to have issues with that Low B. The Low E is bad enough but 7 strings take that issue to a whole nother level.

Now: this may not solve the problem completely with my current method, which is not precise. I don't have this down to an exact science yet, and I haven't been setting the Katana to a specific amount of relief, or putting the neck into a specific degree of back bow before leveling. Nowadays I only use the Katana as I feel it's more accurate than backbowing and leveling, however read ahead:

My friend and mentor who's been in the biz since starting his career working for Dan Armstrong in 1969 started using this technique after I told him about it, and has had at least one major success: getting rid of Low E string buzz on a custom SG that had been PLEK'd. And he doesn't use a Katana or even a leveling beam. He uses Nicholson flat files. He put it in a slight backbow, just like I mentioned, leveled the frets, and when he strung the Low E back up to pitch, no buzz, no rattle. The customer was blown away and was so happy. He had paid a lot to have his guitar PLEK'd and was heartbroken when he had basically the same issue you describe here: Low E rattling/buzzing.

As an ending note, I did not come up with this idea myself, at least not completely. I was browsing online and found this guy in Denton, TX named "Big John." He doesn't reveal his secrets on his website, but that's where I first saw the argument about different strings needing different amounts of relief:

https://bigjohnsguitars.com/fretboard-contouring

"the radius stays the same down the length of the neck...the treble side of the neck gets a slight horizon or a hump the full length of the neck...the bass side gets this hump from the xxx to the xxx fret then drops slightly to a bowl shape with the highest point behind the xxx fret of the bass side.

When string tension is applied the hump becomes as straight as a laser beam and the bowl more pronounced.

This allows the lowest notes to breathe with the amount of relief they need, without raising the other notes off the neck!!"

Now, I'm a big fan of understring leveling. Stewmac sells their Fret Bars which are knockoffs of the Rectify Master aluminum i-beams; either work great. The Katana is the next level, though I actually primarily use it for this particular technique instead of general leveling.

So leveling with the strings on, what Big John is describing would mean leveling the frets flat on the treble side as you normally would, but then adding relief to the Low string side. It sounds like he does this with the strings off -- I do it with the strings on, which I think has the potential to be even more accurate.

Anyway, food for thought for the super particular! Very glad to see this thread! I have a disability in my left hand and keep my action very, very low (below 3/64" on the treble side and at or slightly below 4/64" on the bass side, measured open at the 12th fret, with no neck relief or .002" at the most)...I also use an .008, .011, .015, .022, .030, .046.

The .046 definitely is more resistant to rattling than thinner strings, by the way, and I agree with the idea that 'progressive tension' feels best with strings (tension in pounds increasing slightly from high string to low string, as opposed to balanced tension, or random tension).

Anyway! I'm very happy with my guitars. Some amount of 'rattle' on the Low E and A is to be expected, especially with low action -- but in my experience, the fretwork is more important than the action. I've seen buzz and rattle plenty of times that was bad at 3/64" and wasjust as bad at 6/64" or even 7/64." I'm convinced specialized contouring of the frets needs to be done for the Low E string, and to a lesser extent the A. Going to a slightly heavier gauge on those strings does help as well.

Anyway, I've thought about this a lot over the many years I've been doing guitar work. Thrilled to see this thread. I'll continue developing my technique, but I will tell you that carving some relief into the frets *only* under the Low E/A is a huge step in the right direction, and has made a dramatic difference on my own guitars. Perfection may not be possible, but it's a heck of a lot closer to that now.

One last note: getting the rattle to where it's barely noticeable through an amp is fine. Playing acoustically it will always sound worse than amplified when you're close. Horrible buzz is horrible buzz, but there is a sweet spot where "good enough" gets the job done.

If I ever crack the code on this 100% I'll let you know! But my results lately have been better than ever and again, it's a *huge* improvement over traditional fretwork. Also kinda cool when you check the relief and see a nice gap on the Low E and A but the rest of the strings are dead straight!
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