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Fallen Arches
http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10137&t=46147		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Fret [ Sun Aug 09, 2015 3:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Fallen Arches
My feet have problems..oops my archtop Casino I mean.

I finally got around to setting P90 pickup height and found an issue that bums me. This is why mine was on the used market when I bought it. The arched top has fallen. Both PUs are too low and the neck is at 10/32 which is pretty high.
Casino dog ear P90s aren't height adjustable. They're just screwed directly to the top.

I have this idea to cut my own P90 shims out of balsa to make the work easier. Sanding in particular should be much easier. However I have another idea I may use in addition to shimming so that the shim and the broom handle shim doesn't have to do the entire afjustment by itself. .

I am pondering inserting a dowel the diameter of a broom handle to prop up the arch to a higher level so that the PU shim doesn't do all the adjustment by itself..
The two PUs actually lean into one another so if I buy Fralin shims they will appear to lean towards each other like two leaning towers of Pizza. I am basically jacking up the arch.

If I shim the PUs a little and jack up the arch with a broomstick dowel the two methods wont look as obvious in unison. I'm extremely hesitant to try and achieve the proper height purely by jacking up the arch all by itself. Maybe I will dunno yet.

Anybody have better idea? Any tips?
Author:  Chris Pile [ Sun Aug 09, 2015 4:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fallen Arches
Well, making your own shims would solve the symptoms, but not correct the real problem. One solution is cheap and easy, the other - not so much. Your call.
Author:  Fret [ Sun Aug 09, 2015 5:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fallen Arches
Chris Pile wrote:
Well, making your own shims would solve the symptoms, but not correct the real problem. One solution is cheap and easy, the other - not so much. Your call.


Expound please.

I'm researching my choices at the moment. I'm not in the active work stage yet. I'm not sure if jacking up a top is going to vause separation of wood joints.
Author:  Chris Pile [ Sun Aug 09, 2015 11:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fallen Arches
Reworking the top will be a lot of work, and since I can't see the guitar from where I'm sitting....
Author:  Fret [ Mon Aug 10, 2015 1:29 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Fallen Arches
update

I was able to raise the arch higher and on my 1st try. I am very close to spec now.
I made a dowel that fits between the archtop and bottom. It has a a wedge shape on the top.
The more I slide it under the top the more it raises to top. I have added nearly all of the 1/4"
I needed for the arch to create the correct PU height. This was easy to do but took an hour and 1/2
to cut the right length and shape dowel and get it situated correctly. I haven't used any glue yet
but I like what I can see so far.

I'll see tomorrow if it needs intonating, action adjustment and tuning again. This may have a happy ending. Maybe I did get a good deal on this guitar after all. It is a mint looking 2014 w/case for $400
out the door. That is $250-$300 less than sale price of $599 w/no case right now at GC.

http://www.guitarcenter.com/Epiphone-Limited-Edition-Casino-Hollowbody-Electric-Guitar-107577074-i2131716.gc

I'm sure this guitar was on sale in Ocala, Florida Guitar Center because the arch was flat and thus the pickup height was dreadfully off spec. They apparently just gave up on the guitar and sold it caveat emptor. They really should have declared the issue with this guitar in the ad because I know dang well they were fully aware of this problem. This guitar was really no good as it came. I had been suspicious all along because they threw in the new $100 case for free with a 2014 model that doesn't come with a case. None of the Casinos come case equipped yet this one did.
Author:  Fret [ Mon Aug 10, 2015 1:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fallen Arches
Does anybody think this repair using a wedge jacking dowel to raise the fallen archtop is
inherently wrong? I have not read of any luthier doing this. It got me the results I wanted but is it am Algernon type solution which causes probs down the road?
Author:  Chris Pile [ Mon Aug 10, 2015 2:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fallen Arches
Since you haven't posted pix, I don't really know what you're doing..... I suspect it may be something like a violin soundpost. Am I right?
Author:  Fret [ Mon Aug 10, 2015 2:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fallen Arches
http://www.violins.on.ca/luthier/soundpost.html

Thanks a ton Chris. I did not know what a sound post was until you introduced the term to me.
Yes this is exactly what I did. My sound post is Maple 1/2' x 1/2" by 1 1/4" tall. I also added a wedge design to it so I could slide it in and progressively add lift and separation the further I slide it into place.
This sound post I installed is quite forcefully fitted into place since I'm raising the archtop a 1/4" which requires quite a bit of force. Guitars aren't flimsy. They don't bend easily.

After reading the link above I think I'm satisfied the repair I made is technically correct. I also think the sound post 1/2" x1/2" dimention will prevent a bump from appearing on the surface of the top and bottom . (Think of pressing your finger tip into a window screen.)

My sound post is actually a jack because it does the same thing a pneumatic jack does. I inserted it through the front PU hole and centered it.

This repair was uncharted territory for me.
Author:  Chris Pile [ Mon Aug 10, 2015 3:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fallen Arches
I think you're good! POST SOME PIX!~
Author:  dzsmith [ Mon Aug 10, 2015 7:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fallen Arches
It might eventually lift the top off of the tailblock, but maybe real glue was used.
Author:  Fret [ Mon Aug 10, 2015 9:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fallen Arches
dzsmith wrote:
It might eventually lift the top off of the tailblock, but maybe real glue was used.


That is a concern no doubt. I thought Guitar Center should have owned up to this defect in the sale add. As it is I am sort or forced to try this fix.

Years ago I bought a Strat used at GC and the frets needed replacing. They didn't mention that either.
There are heavy risks involved with buying used guitars online even from supposedly reputable dealers.
You get a 30 day warranty at GC so hope you find all the issues within 30 days. Basically I'd say that GC has a good many problem guitars for sale as used and they don't declare the problems. Frankly I cant imagine how this guitar got out the factory but when you deal with the Chinese you have to consider things like that.
Occationlly you see them list a used guitar as blemished but that refers to the paint job. I really don't give crap about the paint job. Heck, why do you think Relic guitars sell so well?

I had tried buying a Casino for two weeks locally so I could see it before I bought it but never did find one. Kinda got forced into buying onine.

Wht I may do is back off a little on how much lift I added to the arch and fill that gap with a PU shim.
This way half the problem is fixed by the sound pole and half the problem is fixed by the PU shim thus reducing stresses on glue joints.
Author:  Chris Pile [ Mon Aug 10, 2015 11:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fallen Arches
Quote:
Years ago I bought a Strat..... and the frets needed replacing.


Yeah, sometime they come from the factory that way. pfft
Author:  Haans [ Tue Aug 11, 2015 6:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Fallen Arches
Technically correct...no. Functionally, OK, but undoubtedly, you lose some of any acoustic properties of the guitar. Soundposts are installed in violins, because they are a bowed instrument and need a coupled back and top to function. Guitars, being a plucked instrument, don't have a coupled back.
Since it has a maple top (probably laminate), I wouldn't worry about it.
Author:  Hesh [ Tue Aug 11, 2015 7:38 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Fallen Arches
On a positive note Elderly Instruments in Lansing, Michigan does a fantastic job of accurately describing used, vintage, and "as-is" instruments. They go to great pains to get the description right and the instruments are described by the repair folks, not the sales folks which greatly elevates the quality of the reviews.

The "as-is" section of Elderly can have some real gems listed from time to time for the folks who know how to do the work themselves. Some of my guys have gotten some really cool stuff there and at very low prices too.

Highly recommended for "project" guitars!
Author:  Fret [ Tue Aug 11, 2015 4:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fallen Arches
Haans wrote:
Technically correct...no. Functionally, OK, but undoubtedly, you lose some of any acoustic properties of the guitar. Soundposts are installed in violins, because they are a bowed instrument and need a coupled back and top to function. Guitars, being a plucked instrument, don't have a coupled back.
Since it has a maple top (probably laminate), I wouldn't worry about it.


Since I've installed sound post have I changed a hollowbody into a semi hollowbody? Now I have changed my Casino into a ES335. Maybe I can put it back on GCs used section at 4 times what I paid for it?
Author:  dzsmith [ Tue Aug 11, 2015 5:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fallen Arches
The now rigid "soundboard" should not have any effect on the amplified sound in my opinion.
Author:  Haans [ Tue Aug 11, 2015 6:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fallen Arches
If it were a Byrdland or Super 4, I'd say you could tell the difference, but those were "acoustic electric" jazz/blues guitars.
This (I would guess) is a plywood guitar. Most all the "tone" will come from the pickups. Not going to be fat like a Super 4 with heavy strings...
As to what you can sell it for, shrug...not an electric guy.
Author:  Fret [ Tue Aug 11, 2015 10:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fallen Arches
Chris Pile wrote:
Since you haven't posted pix, I don't really know what you're doing..... I suspect it may be something like a violin soundpost. Am I right?


Quote:
The G5422T Electromatic Hollowbody FSR Electric Guitar comes in a factory special run finish. It's a sharp Gretsch guitar with a bound double-cutaway hollow body featuring sound-post bracing and elegant bound f holes


Chris I had never heard of a "sound post" before you mentioned it a day ago yet here is a Gretsch guitar
that mentions a sound post in the product review that I just read today.

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/guitars/gretsch-guitars-special-edition-g5422t-electromatic-hollowbody-electric-guitar?src=3XBACR#productDetail
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