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Speaking of "new rules.."
http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10137&t=48912		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  truckjohn [ Tue Jan 24, 2017 5:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Speaking of "new rules.."
Reading the Ovation topic has me smiling.

Why? Sure - Ovation built a whole whack of instruments... And they mass produced the heck out of them.... And while you know it's going to be a headache - it's a very predictable headache...

But even worse than this. The flood of hobby/small builder instruments as they get old and need work.... I fear.... Because the materials, methods, techniques are just so haphazard and non-standard....

When the guitars of the Hobby Building craze start hitting the repair guys en-masse.... C&N came out in the '80's... But hobby building didn't really hit its stride till after The Internet in the 2000's....

Like all the guitars built with C&N's original Gurian style pinned M&T neck joint... Or epoxy and superglue everywhere..... Or the just general WTFery we see when people start making stuff up for themselves... Or guitars as art - where there's no way to fix it except to saw it into lots of pieces....

The reason I bring this up... I have worked on plenty of house projects following up after DIY'ers who just made a horrible mess of things.... And one thing I learned about "Following Code" ..... If something is wrong - it's wrong in a predictable way.... Professional electricians may sometimes do sloppy work - but it's professional electrician sloppy, not WTF??? Homeowner used chewing gum, tooth paste, and a kitchen spatula to "fix" a broken outlet sort of hot mess...

Good professional tile guys may have the occasional crack - but all their tile doesn't peel off the floor 6 months later because they used tub caulk to stick it down....

And I see the same things going on... But as the "Hobby Building" craft escalates... It's going to be a much bigger issue just like it has become with DIY homeowner repairs.....
Author:  Pat Foster [ Tue Jan 24, 2017 5:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Speaking of "new rules.."
You are right on the money, there, truck john. I've seen it already. Couple years ago a guy asked me to fix a loose neck block and a host of other problems on a "custom" guitar. The block was too short, so it was shimmed with what looked like a couple of popsicle sticks, was separated from the back and rotating, pulling the sides with it. It was only about two years old. I told him he needed to talk to the builder. I can only imagine what the builder did to "fix" it, and what other repair work awaits the builder.

We've only seen the tip of the iceberg. wow7-eyes

Pat
Author:  jshelton [ Tue Jan 24, 2017 6:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Speaking of "new rules.."
truckjohn wrote:

Professional electricians may sometimes do sloppy work - but it's professional electrician sloppy, not WTF??? Homeowner used chewing gum, tooth paste, and a kitchen spatula to "fix" a broken outlet sort of hot mess...


This reminds me of the "professional electrician" who wired service to my new house a few years ago. He was complaining about having to return to redo his work since the house required a 4 wire service instead of 3. He was ich at me about it and asked how he was to know. I had the good fortune of being able to point out to him a little sign right next to his head that said, "4 wire service only". What an idiot! 4 wire service has been code for years around here.
Author:  DanKirkland [ Tue Jan 24, 2017 7:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Speaking of "new rules.."
John you are absolutely correct in everything you've said, I have already seen many (read MANY) poor building decisions come through my shop. Although I see more botched repair jobs than I do botched build jobs (but I'm sure they're coming soon).

It seems like for most things there is a SEVERE disconnect between good woodworking practice and instruments. It's as if people don't realize that luthiery is literally highly skilled woodworking applied to music.
Author:  truckjohn [ Tue Jan 24, 2017 9:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Speaking of "new rules.."
DanKirkland wrote:
It seems like for most things there is a SEVERE disconnect between good woodworking practice and instruments. It's as if people don't realize that luthiery is literally highly skilled woodworking applied to music.


Yeah.. But people who "know a lot about woodworking" are generally the ones you can't tell anything and refuse to listen to instrument building specific advice... Like don't use Gorilla glue on bridges.... Frets have to go in extremely specific places... And little gaps in glue joints on stuff like the center seams, neck scarf joint, and braces really matter a lot.
Author:  fumblefinger [ Tue Jan 24, 2017 11:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Speaking of "new rules.."
Yep, had a friend bring over a kit built dulcimer to "lower the action" and "see what you can do about the fret buzz here, and here and here". Ebony nut and saddle that was so dry the nut split across the grain on the third or fourth file stroke. Managed to get all but one of the buzzes fixed. Of course he didn't want to pony up the money for a full level and dress...
Author:  david farmer [ Wed Jan 25, 2017 12:19 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Speaking of "new rules.."
I hate being the bearer of bad news when someone brings in a "hand made" instrument they are aglow about. I'ts much easier to tell them the factory screwed up than that their fantasy luthier botched it.
Author:  Hesh [ Wed Jan 25, 2017 1:40 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Speaking of "new rules.."
david farmer wrote:
I hate being the bearer of bad news when someone brings in a "hand made" instrument they are aglow about. I'ts much easier to tell them the factory screwed up than that their fantasy luthier botched it.


Tell me about it.... :?

Had a conversation with a mando buyer today who had a newer builder build them a mando. The neck is in permanent backbow.... and needs the frets removed, the board leveled... the slots depended, likely inlays removed and reinstalled all because the builder was not ready for prime time but went ugly early commercially..... anyway....

A very common occurrence with lots of builders putting some pretty lousy work out there and apparently not being concerned in the least....

Although unpleasant my duty is to my clients and our own business. As such although I don't go out of my way to point out reasons why I think this builder or that builder's skill sets are lacking I also won't hesitate to point it out when it becomes a limiting factor in the client enjoying the instrument or me doing my job and getting it set-up well and playing well.

Something that we've discussed in our shop that would be helpful is to continue as I do.... to drive home the point that ultimately a guitar, mando, etc. is a tool for a musician. It's not a wall hanging, it's not just a wood working project. There is important geometry and physics that has to be present as Rick Turner once said on this very forum or we are just building "GLOs, guitar like objects."

That's why learning set-up well is every bit as important as bracing a top, carving a neck, etc.
Author:  Frank Ford [ Wed Jan 25, 2017 12:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Speaking of "new rules.."
Hesh wrote:
. . .A very common occurrence with lots of builders putting some pretty lousy work out there and apparently not being concerned in the least....


Mostly, I think they are concerned, but just not aware because of inexperience.

Quote:
As such although I don't go out of my way to point out reasons why I think this builder or that builder's skill sets are lacking I also won't hesitate to point it out when it becomes a limiting factor in the client enjoying the instrument or me doing my job . . .


Yep, we have to do that more and more often these days

Quote:
. . .That's why learning set-up well is every bit as important as bracing a top, carving a neck, etc. . .


Maybe even MORE important, yes?
Author:  Robert Lak [ Wed Jan 25, 2017 3:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Speaking of "new rules.."
Shhhhh... next thing you know is government regulations will creep in, you'll all be paying dues to some ISO Standardization body, and another organization will collect fees to certify you're organic, and all that hazardous waste (cocobolo sawdust for example) will need to be appropriately handled and disposed of properly by trained professionals (for a fee)... but the instruments from china will flow in the same...
Author:  Chris Pile [ Wed Jan 25, 2017 4:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Speaking of "new rules.."
Nah. Not for at least another 8 years.
Author:  david farmer [ Wed Jan 25, 2017 5:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Speaking of "new rules.."
Chris Pile wrote:
Nah. Not for at least another 8 years.


EIGHT! wow7-eyes
Author:  fumblefinger [ Wed Jan 25, 2017 11:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Speaking of "new rules.."
Hesh wrote:
That's why learning set-up well is every bit as important as bracing a top, carving a neck, etc.

Yeah, I love to interrogate the guys who come to me claiming they do their own set ups.
"Really, what kind of nut files are you using?"
"I don't mess with the nut"
"Do have to adjust the truss rod much?"
"I don't mess with that."
"What do you normally set your relief at the 7th to?"
"The what?"
"Never mind"
Author:  david farmer [ Thu Jan 26, 2017 7:53 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Speaking of "new rules.."
I wanted to add that I usually offer to call an individual builder for a customer when there is a problem that should have been caught during the build.
The customer rarely has the knowledge to talk with them in a useful way. As much as we like to b!tch about how poorly something is made,(especially repair folks), the fact is, getting everything right every time is not easy. For factories or an individual. If I was the builder, I sure would appreciate the opportunity to apologize profusely and make it right. It also conveys to a customer your really on their side and not just a naysayer.
Although I've hit the occasional brick wall, most builders have been helpful and on a couple of occasions, lent some important information. Like, "by the way, the bridge is glued on with polyurethane". Good to know!
I think most small builders are short on honest feedback, and if they are the "shoot the messenger" type, they have bigger problems than any one instrument.
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