Also welcome to the OLF Alwin!!!
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| Meaning of size is R=2 and R=3 on some crowning tools? http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10137&t=55990 |
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| Author: | alwinvrm [ Fri Oct 20, 2023 10:45 am ] |
| Post subject: | Meaning of size is R=2 and R=3 on some crowning tools? |
I see in the description of Hosco medium sized crowning files R=2, etc. to indicate size. If R means radius, then R=2 means that the half circle (2 x R) grinding opening of the tool is 4 mm wide. To me that seems a very wide opening for a medium fret. But maybe R=2 means something totally different. to the point; If I want to crown frets with a width between 2.4 mm and 2.65 mm, medium jumbo, and the occasional 2.2 mm, what size crowning file do I need, R=2 or R=3? Only want to buy one file for the moment. Thanx! |
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| Author: | rbuddy [ Fri Oct 20, 2023 11:43 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Meaning of size is R=2 and R=3 on some crowning tools? |
I think you kind of have it right Alwin. I don't use that brand but in general, crowning files cover a range of fret sizes because there are just too many sizes to cover with an individual file for each. It also isn't necessary. Looking at their web site, it looks to me like R=1 covers frets up to 2mm in width, R=2 would cover frets >2mm wide and up to 4mm wide. The point of fret crowning it to make the fret "peak" a radius to make the string contact point consistent with scale length fret position. It isn't necessary to bring the whole fret to a radius equalling the width of the fret. It is only necessary to radius the top of the fret to something round as opposed to flat after leveling. So in your case with frets wider than 2mm, it looks like the R=2 file would be the right choice. At least that is my take. https://www.hosco.co.jp/en/luthier-tools/h-ff2.html |
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| Author: | Hesh [ Fri Oct 20, 2023 1:22 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Meaning of size is R=2 and R=3 on some crowning tools? |
It's a Hosco thing as Brian said and not something we use or even know about in the US. I use StewMac crowning files they are excellent and guaranteed for life. We have a commercial shop and I just turned in 10 nut files to StewMac that are up to 18 years old for warranty replacements and with no BS they sent me all new replacements. I'm thrilled. All these files had been used thousands of times so there is real value in StewMac tools. |
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| Author: | Hesh [ Fri Oct 20, 2023 1:23 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Meaning of size is R=2 and R=3 on some crowning tools? |
Also welcome to the OLF Alwin!!!
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| Author: | alwinvrm [ Fri Oct 20, 2023 2:40 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Meaning of size is R=2 and R=3 on some crowning tools? |
Thanks Brian and Old Wood. Yes it is hard to understand what file size goes with which fret size. If only manufacturers would specify a width range of frets. I like the idea of SM tools but I am in Europe and I have to be realistic about my only home use. If I were in the US I would get the Z file. |
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| Author: | rbuddy [ Fri Oct 20, 2023 2:52 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Meaning of size is R=2 and R=3 on some crowning tools? |
Another way to look at it Alwin. As frets wear down and are leveled and recrowned. The top radius of the fret has to change as the width of the fret does not. So at some point nd even larger radius fret file may be necessary for it to hit the crown and not the fret board during the recrowning. And as Hesh said, welcome to the OLF! |
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| Author: | Hesh [ Fri Oct 20, 2023 9:47 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Meaning of size is R=2 and R=3 on some crowning tools? |
The proper technique a using crowning file is to slightly rock the file as using it. If you don't rock the file your frets will have crowns like the roof on a school bus with more vertical sides and a sharper transition into the crown. This is not a good fret shape and will be felt as drag by better players as they, we slide our fingers up and down the frets. Or, in other words it produces a hard edge in the transition to the crown if the file is not slightly rocked to knock down that edge. If you have ever played a recent model Fender Professional II Strat of Tele their "tall" frets and the hard transition to a school bus roof is what I speak of. It's not a good fret shape for player feel. As such some use a "safed" three corner file to hit the edge of the fret where the crown begins to knock down the transition edge from the fret side to the gentle crown top. Practice makes perfect rocking files is not all that easy to do but eliminates the need for that additional step for perfect work or using the three corner file. But the point here is that if you rock the file a file for jumbo frets can be used to crown medium frets too. But a file for medium frets should never be used for a jumbo fret. With this said if you are using jumbo wire use a crowning file for jumbo frets of the largest size offered. We have Z-files and do not like them and as such we stuck with the round nose, diamond files. They work in both directions, go on sale from time to time and ours have lasted though hundreds of fret dresses including stainless. To set the stage we have fret crowning activity happening in our shop every day of the week we do that much fret work. We recently purchased other brand diamond files for our new tool a power fret crowning machine and the bond of the so-called diamond abrasive sucked and wore off almost before our eyes. I won't say what brand this was but that made less expensive tools like is usually the case actually more expensive in terms of value received. With all this offered we are very impressed with the value we receive from StewMac tools and will stick with them after wasting money on less expensive alternatives that did not hold up even for an evaluation period. The difference was stark between SM tools and some of the alternatives. I don't work for and am not connected to StewMac in any way I simply appreciate nice stuff and good value. But we are a commercial, high volume shop with famous clients who at times want action lower than a snake's belly in a wagon rut. |
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| Author: | SteveSmith [ Sat Oct 21, 2023 6:26 am ] |
| Post subject: | Meaning of size is R=2 and R=3 on some crowning tools? |
Hesh I usually agree with you on fret work but I still like and use my Z files. I feel like I can get down on the side of the fret better. Gotta rock them just like the others plus flip them so both sides of the fret get worked with each angle on the file. Faster to do it then tell it. I leveled, crowned and polished one last night, took less than an hour. |
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| Author: | alwinvrm [ Sat Oct 21, 2023 8:31 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Meaning of size is R=2 and R=3 on some crowning tools? |
Thanks Old Growth and Brian for the clarifications, that helps a lot. To put things into perspective a short no handle SM crowning file like the Z and the Centered costs me here 160 USD for one without shipping. |
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| Author: | Hesh [ Sat Oct 21, 2023 7:26 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Meaning of size is R=2 and R=3 on some crowning tools? |
alwinvrm wrote: Thanks Old Growth and Brian for the clarifications, that helps a lot. To put things into perspective a short no handle SM crowning file like the Z and the Centered costs me here 160 USD for one without shipping. The files we use from StewMac the round nose diamond with handles cost us $173 USD and they are worth it. Diamond files work in both direction and do not chatter meaning there is an opportunity for higher precision because you won't have to sand off chatter marks. But I understand people value tools differently. I bought my files before I became a professional luthier and before I had any intent to do so. After I did become a working in the trade pro it was a good move on my part to have these files. I still use the very same files and have gotten perhaps hundreds of fret dresses out of them. I own and use a Festool drill every day too to power wind strings since I change so many and install pick-ups and many other things. It's 17 years old now and I have only had to buy a new battery once. It came without a lithium ion battery but with a charger that would do lithium ion someday if I wanted and when they came out. They came out, I upgraded and this very same drill is in service to this day. I paid $300 USD for it. My business partner likes a different brand drill for $150 USD and he's had to replace his drill three times in the same period. Anyway I understand I simply see the value of good tools and what they cost differently and have benefited from spending a bit more up front for what I really want when well thought out and it's worked out for me and our business. Stewart McDonald recently made an acquisition of a company in Europe and I strongly suspect that they will expand to offering their stuff in the EU that will be distributed from the EU for the first time. Hopefully this will make StewMac tools more affordable for EU folks. Lastly and everything I write unless stated otherwise is directed at everyone we did just exchange ten files that we used for nearly two decades from StewMac for ten brand new replacements at no cost to us and it was effortless and very rewarding to have a company stand behind their products for life, for life. This makes these files less expensive by far when a single purchase can provide value for the rest of one's days. We were not even charged shipping. Amazing. |
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| Author: | Hesh [ Sat Oct 21, 2023 7:29 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Meaning of size is R=2 and R=3 on some crowning tools? |
SteveSmith wrote: Hesh I usually agree with you on fret work but I still like and use my Z files. I feel like I can get down on the side of the fret better. Gotta rock them just like the others plus flip them so both sides of the fret get worked with each angle on the file. Faster to do it then tell it. I leveled, crowned and polished one last night, took less than an hour. Dave likes the Z-files too although he seems to not use them very often instead using the round nose long handle ones. I think I like what I like because I learned with them and am very comfortable with them. I like the longer length too because it amplifies to me if I have the fret level, angled away or angled toward me and because of the added length it's easier for me to tell. I sure like diamond files though and got rid of all my conventional, chattering crowning files. |
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