Official Luthiers Forum!

Hi. I'm a first time "poster" on this forum, but I have been spending a lot of time reading through a lot of the threads lately.

I'm currently working on my 1st guitar (trying to finish it up) and I've come to a point where things aren't quite going my way. Luckily though, I'm able to set the mistakes aside and purchase a new piece of wood to try it again.

I purchased the Manual slotting system from LMI and I paid the extra money (about $18-20) to get the Dozuki saw instead of the other fret saw that they offered (thinking that it was a much better quality saw.

After trying to slot my first fingerboard, the teeth on the saw started bending on each side and caused the fret slots to be extremly wide. I've basically had to throw the fingerboard to the side with plans to turn it into ebony dust to use for inlaying later.

Finally.......My question is what could I be doing wrong to cause this Dozuki saw to basically fall apart? Or is it possibly that the saw really isn't that great of quality? And finally what is everyone else using to slot their fingerboards without having this same problem.

I would like to get a set up that I can be comfortable and confident with to slot my fingerboards and at the price of this jig, I would like to make it work if at all possible (hopefully I just need the right kind of saw or to figure out what I did wrong to cause it to "fall apart").

Thank you in advance for any help that you can provide.
blain197639089.9127777778

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Thanks,
Blain

http://www.ullrichguitar.com

"89.67% of all statistics are made up on the spot."

I think you need the back saw, which stiffens the blade, which if you think about it is .o21 to .023 inches thin. It's like a feeler guage for setting points on an old car. Just not strong at all. The Douzuki is a quality flexible Japanese saw, good for lots of things, just not fretting.

I have a blade from Shane Niefer, Mountain Tonewoods, and a couple of blade stiffeners from Lee Valley and use my table saw to cut frets. For a hobby builder, the hand sawing fret jig is probably all that's necessary.

Get the regular stiff backsaw and you'll be able to get 'er done. Bruce

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http://www.dickeyguitars.com

Thanks Bruce. I think that's exactly what I wanted to hear.

I was looking at ordering the Fret Saw (backsaw) from LMI, but didn't want to spend the money if it would be the same as the Dozuki.

I'll order it tomorrow.

Thanks again for your help.

_________________
Thanks,
Blain

http://www.ullrichguitar.com

"89.67% of all statistics are made up on the spot."

Hi-
Most Dozuki saws are best at sawing softwoods, as the teeth are quite long. Eventually the teeth in the middle will just break off.
A couple of ideas:
First, you could try using the epoxy technique to set frets in the too-wide slots (assuming they are in the correct position). Don Teeter's classic book on Guitar Repair explains the rationale. It's fallen out of favour these days but could be worth a try. You have to clamp the frets in place with a caul until the epoxy sets.

Another possibility would be to use CA glue, but I have no experience with that.

I wouldn't hesitate to set the teeth on the Dozuki back toward the spine a bit if they are noticeably bent. A few light taps while supporting the blade on a hardwood block can make a difference.

BTW, congrats on cutting your own fret slots! Lots of folks are using pre-slotted (and shaped) fingerboards, but you can say you built the guitar 'from scratch' (except for the tuners, I assume).
Cheers

John

Forgot to say: I wouldn't hesitate to return the Dozuki to LMI for exchange or refund. They will want to know you had a problem.
John

I have the unit you are talking about, and that Douzki saw. I had the same issues. I went back and got the older style saw. Now it works like a champ.

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

Thanks John,

I think I'll just use this fingerboard for practice and for inlay dust.

I did email LMI to see if they have had issues with the Dozuki saw or if I could be doing something wrong, but I'm not too concerned with getting a refund since it could have been misuse on my part. We learn as we go, right. (I haven't heard back from LMI since I emailed them over the weekend, but I'm sure I'll hear from them tomorrow or early this week since they have been really great at getting back with me on any questions that I've had.

I am trying to do everything from scratch. (Yes, I'm one of those types that thinks they have to do everything...at least give it a try).

It seems like every step of the guitar that I take, I think to myself that I should have done a kit instead, but then after accomplishing the next task, I realize that it really wasn't that bad afterall. (Of course now I'm working on the neck and fingerboard and I have those thoughts again.)

Thanks Brock,

It's good to hear that I'm not the only one that has had this problem (well, I don't mean that I'm glad to hear that you had a problem, but glad that it wasn't just me)

I'm also glad to hear that you purchased the older style saw and that it works like a champ using that. I'll order the saw tomorrow and hopefully my slotting issues will be solved after that.

I'm really glad I stumbled across this Forum. I can't believe that amount of information that can be found here and then to have all of you be so generous to help out is priceless.

Thanks to all!

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Thanks,
Blain

http://www.ullrichguitar.com

"89.67% of all statistics are made up on the spot."

Thanks Todd,

I wouldn't doubt that I did something wrong. (It's my first attempt at slotting a fingerboard and I'm more than willing to accept the fact that I just didn't do something correctly).

Do you use the manual slotting system?

I'm curious as to how tight the "plastic" blocks should be on the saw. I had mine set up fairly tight at first, but then loosened the gap a bit to ease the sawing. It's possible that maybe I had it too loose at the teeth were getting caught or hung up on the outside edge of the fingerboard slot if the saw wasn't coming back at the exact same angle.

Maybe I should order another Dozuki saw and the older style saw both and try again with each to see if I can get them to work for me. I would just like to find what works and hopefully have good luck with it.

Thanks again for your input.

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Thanks,
Blain

http://www.ullrichguitar.com

"89.67% of all statistics are made up on the spot."

I use the Stew Mac Miter box with their backsaw, and have had good results except that the saw seems to dull quickly. Mine is the old push cut saw. Their new one cuts on the pull stroke, and seems like it would be easier to use.

Al

Lmi's fret back saw cuts on the pull stroke... I used mine on several fretboards and never had any trouble. It would be worth a try. It does have very little set so it can be a bit "sticky".

If you're going to do very many, Shane's blade for the table saw is the way to go.

Welcome to the OLF.

Just want to say Hi Blain and welcome to the OLF!

Have fun building!

I use a douzouki with the StewMac system. Works absolutely perfectly.

Thanks again everyone!

Looks like both the Dozuki and the back saw should do the trick, but I just had something set up wrong or wasn't using it properly.

I'll probably give them both a try and try to make one (or even better - both), work for me.

Thanks again for all of the input!

And Thank you for the warm welcome Serge. It's certainly nice to be here. I look forward to sticking around (so long as I am welcome)

Now it's time for me to force myself to get some sleep.

Thanks all!

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Thanks,
Blain

http://www.ullrichguitar.com

"89.67% of all statistics are made up on the spot."

For the first 4 guitars, I used a little saw I made from a Stanley flush trim saw I bought at HD for $15.

I now have a blade from Shane at Highmountain for the table saw.

Here's the homemade hand saw.

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My Facebook Guitar Page

"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson

Blain, one thing you'll find here is true camaraderie, also,all your questions will be answered and your building skills will improve dramaticly. There are never any dumb questions and remember to take pics for us to see as you progress please!

Cheers

Serge

[QUOTE=Bruce Dickey] I think you need the back saw, which stiffens the blade, which if you think about it is .o21 to .023 inches thin. It's like a feeler guage for setting points on an old car. Just not strong at all. The Douzuki is a quality flexible Japanese saw, good for lots of things, just not fretting.

[/QUOTE]

I agree with Bruce, the Japanese saws are great but not for cutting fret slots. I use the Stewmac slot cutting jig and their guaged fret saw.

[QUOTE=Mattia Valente] I use a douzouki with the StewMac system. Works absolutely perfectly.[/QUOTE]

Maybe because of that dicky arm youre working that Japanese saw really gingerly

Hope the arm is getting better.

Cheerskiwigeo39090.1710300926

(editing out my post - I'm afraid it would have been misinterpreted.)

Jayecklesweb39090.3477777778

Thanks, I've taken plenty of pictures along the way.

Here's one that is "pre-binding". I have since installed maple binding, but unfortunately I don't have pictures with me. (I can get some put on when I get home).

Also sorry for the poor quality of the image. I have re-sized it a lot for sending through email so the size is a lot smaller than normal.

Y'all are great! Thanks again for all the help.

Now I need to see about ordering those saws so I can make another attempt at slotting a fingerboard.

_________________
Thanks,
Blain

http://www.ullrichguitar.com

"89.67% of all statistics are made up on the spot."

On all my early guitars I used Douzoukis from Lee Valley - they hav a spine on them to aid in the stiffness. Could be the saw is not that good, or the technique, or a bit of both. I probably cut 8-10 boards before buying the stew mac blade. I never had a mitre box so I cant say how much the setup of that counts, but likely a lot as well. All I used was a straight piece of wood clamped next to where I wanted to cut the slot.

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Tony Karol
www.karol-guitars.com
"let my passion .. fulfill yours"

Before I switched to the thin-kerf saw blade for my table saw that Shane sells, I was using two saws with the Stewmac jig: the LMI fret saw, and a Crown brand backsaw. Paid about the same for each, as I recall. As was mentioned before, the LMI backsaw cuts on the pull stroke, which I prefer. The Crown cuts on the push stroke. My LMI saw cuts a 0.023" kerf and my Crown cuts a 0.025" kerf.

Actually, I still use these saws because I have to contour the bass side of my classicals' fingerboards, which requires that I go back over the slots and deepen them somewhat. I prefer the Crown for its slightly wider kerf, which matches that of Shane's blade, but I like the LMI because it cuts on the pull stroke.

Best,

Michael

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Live to Play, Play to Live

[QUOTE=kiwigeo] [QUOTE=Mattia Valente] I use a douzouki with the StewMac system. Works absolutely perfectly.[/QUOTE]

Maybe because of that dicky arm youre working that Japanese saw really gingerly

Hope the arm is getting better.

Cheers[/QUOTE]

;p

This was before said arm kerfuffling. Basically, I set up the mitre box dead-on tight (grips the blade in place), and let the sharp teeth do the cutting. Even, smooth strokes, gentle pull, unbacked saw. Still takes under 10 minutes to cut 22-24 fret slots.

I have had issues with the blade guides seeming to wear really quickly with the douzouki saw. I seem to have to nip up the side screws every few cuts. But this can reset the centre of the cut relative to the template if not done evenly from both sides and so the super accurate scale template becomes less so. I am thinking I may have to make a better guide and one where you can see the cut better.
Dom

[QUOTE=TonyKarol] On all my early guitars I used Douzoukis from Lee Valley - they hav a spine on them to aid in the stiffness. Could be the saw is not that good, or the technique, or a bit of both. I probably cut 8-10 boards before buying the stew mac blade. I never had a mitre box so I cant say how much the setup of that counts, but likely a lot as well. All I used was a straight piece of wood clamped next to where I wanted to cut the slot.[/QUOTE]

I don't use a miter box ether. I just lay it out by hand and use a piece of wood as a guide. The saw I use is from Harbor Frieght. I've only cut 4 finger boards with it so I don't know how long it will last but they are cheap. Dave Rickard39097.5425578704

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Say what you do, Do what you say.

Just wanted to say that I got the other fret saw from LMI and gave it a shot yesterday and it worked great. Nice smooth clean cuts.

I'll probably stick to this method for a good while, but will not hesitate to give the dozuki saw another try in the future.

Thanks to all!

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Thanks,
Blain

http://www.ullrichguitar.com

"89.67% of all statistics are made up on the spot."