Official Luthiers Forum!

Hurt feelings and a tough spot to be in.

Folks, I feel compelled to post my thoughts on the events of the last few days, and moreover
a trend that is beginning to take shape.

Everyone here that has registered and been given the privilege to post has agreed to
a few rules that were put in place to make the OLF a completely INCLUSIVE place where
guitar builders from around the world would feel welcomed and want to participate.
Participate in what? Discussion of guitar building!
The OLF is also a family friendly place. You have all heard me say that I prefer it to be a G rated site.

That said, our small request that we don't discuss religion or politics, or use cuss words seems like such a small thing to ask, it just bewilders me that we have a hard time complying.

We lost a few good members over the last few days, ALL due to not following these simple and few rules.

I will not get into what defines religion and or politics, I think we are all well aware of what is meant by this and what we are trying to avoid. If not, email me and I will define them for you.

My suggestion, lets try harder to avoid making comments that include these topics.

Thanks for listening,

_________________
Support the OLF! Bookmark our STEWMAC link Today!
Lance@LuthiersForum.com

Thanks Lance for making the OLF a sensible place to hang out. And yes, it is for the purpose of Talking about acoustic guitars. Most folks are decent and agreeable, it's easy to get crabby when someone stomps on ideas of others.

I've been working hard lately and don't have a clue what this is about. But I've seen enough of what you mention to know it can get ugly, and besides, it's no fun. When I come to the OLF, it's my spare time and I want to invest it in a positive experience. That is what I find most often on the OLF and am grateful for that.

Hats off to the OLF, the best little luthier hangout on the planet.

_________________
http://www.dickeyguitars.com

You nailed it Bruce!

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Peter M.
Cornerstone Guitars
http://www.cornerstoneukes.com

Lance...Kudos for addressing this in light of the issue brewing beneath the surface. I agree with your and Brock's decision to enforce the rule in keeping religion off the forum. The cussin' thing is not as deep an issue IMO but you have every right to enforce the rules. I support your actions.

The issue of Serge leaving, however, hurts tremendously and I know I'm not alone. We're all going to miss our favorite bear. I would only hope that he can reach a place where he can separate the need to include discussing his beliefs in the context of guitar building discussions.

Serge...we miss you and hope you return soon!

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

I have no idea what this is in reference to, but thanks Lance for your efforts to keep this forum as cordial as possible.
-j.

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“If God dwells inside us like some people say, I sure hope He likes enchiladas, because that's what He's getting”
-jack handy

Lance-
I agree with your position 100%.

The inclusion of religion and religious thoughts in posts has not been limited to only a few people. When I first starting reading posts on the OLF a few months ago I assumed that I had stumbled upon a site which blended luthierie and religion. Many posts include promises of prayer and other religious statements. Perhaps a general announcement from time to time could help to keep these prayerful comments in check, and prevent the escalation which we've seen in the past little while.

All of us should try to stick to lutherie around here and keep declarations of our various personal beliefs for other venues.

It should also be made clear that the OLF policies about politics and religion extend to the 'Off Topic' area. Perhaps some general guidelines about that area would be in order as well. Humor, computer problems, music taste and topics, personal announcements,etc seem to fit. Conflicts about environmental, health and educational issues don't- there are plenty of other places on the internet for these.

Regards
John

I guess I missed the train on this issue and am not aware of whatever hubbub is referenced here.
I do know that there are a good number of members/luthiers with strong personal religious convictions, myself included. However, I think most of our "expressions" of these beliefs have been shared/expressed in PM's or other personal communications.
In fact, Lance and I had a PM conversation not long ago where our beliefs and their influence on our work were incorporated in the overall discussion. For the most part, I have not read many Forum topics that went off on any tangent, but then I don't read all the topic subjects.
And if I have included a "God bless" somewhere in a Forum post, it was directed to a specific person that I know shares that common belief. It certainly was not meant to try to persuade anyone or force my belief on them. If it was taken that way, I apologize to whomever I may have offended.
That said, this is still, IMHO, one of the most civil Forums on the internet, regardless of subject matter. Egads, just visit rmmga for a week or two for a "reality check".
Whatever the issue, I hope it can be resolved positively and that anyone who has left the ranks of OLF returns to share their passion for our art.

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Hank Mauel

This is a call that has been made at almost every forum I have been involved with..Just happened over at acoustic guitar.com on the beginner forum..(now they don't have an off topic forum..where this happened) . but folks started to use the forum every day to say what they were blessed with and it was getting out of hand..the moderator, as was done here, put out the friendly reminder...bumped it a few times..and all is OK again...nobody left... Nobody meant any harm in posting the treads ( which is the case here) but folks realized their was a place for everything. Religion and politics have started conflicts for years..and obviously still do ... One has to be very careful what one says or does on these type forums..we all know that..( esp concerning religion and Politics)  for what may offend some..is water off a ducks back to others...I wish those who have decided to leave perhaps just take a sabatical..and are back soon..if they decide not to , then no problem..private email is always there..I don't know if Serge is still out there, but he said in the infamous apology thread that he may have offended some, which I think was the case, and he apologized, the same can be said when bring up religion, as opposed to body funtions...maybe eliminating the off topic discussion forum is the answer ( as they did at acoustic guitar), but lets not go there just yet...besides its the only forum I can post on with regularity..due to my lack of guitar making skill

Gee what a ramble...Sorry...Come on back everyone...

	Imagine there's no Heaven It's easy if you try No hell below us Above us only sky Imagine all the people Living for today Imagine there's no countries It isn't hard to do Nothing to kill or die for And no religion too Imagine all the people Living life in peace

well on this forum anyway....Lance/Brock send this response to the far limits of the universe if you wish..Peace to all..life's to short.. 

Hank,
Perhaps I don't understand the rules, but I can't imagine that they would include avoiding saying something like "God Bless You" or "I'll be praying for you", especially in the Off Topic area when someone posts about serious personal issues and you know the person is a man or woman of faith.   
Someone please let me know if I am wrong.

Lance,
This is a great forum. Don't lose heart, you are doing a great job!   

_________________
"An adventure is only an inconvenience rightly considered. An inconvenience is an adventure wrongly considered." G. K. Chesterton.

OOOOOps did I just though Brock's name into the Quagmire without justification..Sorry..,,ummm...er....Brock for vise president!!

So, Irwin, now that we've established that folks are forbidden to express themselves in a faith-affirming way on this forum, why do you think it's acceptable to express your anti-religious views in the form of Lennon's "Imagine" song lyrics? If you like that lyric, surely you understand what it says?

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D..

Lance,

I'm afraid I too missed what led to this.

Those members will be sorely missed and I hope there will come a time when they can return, but sometimes you just gotta dig deep and find the courage to stand up for your principles.

I believe the integrity of you and others who run this forum are what make it such a rare meeting place in this jungle we call the web.

Long live the OLF!

_________________
now known around here as Pat Foster
_________________
http://www.patfosterguitars.com

[QUOTE=Dennis E.] So, Irwin, now that we've established that folks are forbidden to express themselves in a faith-affirming way on this forum, why do you think it's acceptable to express your anti-religious views in the form of Lennon's "Imagine" song lyrics? If you like that lyric, surely you understand what it says?[/QUOTE]

Amen to that!

Those are the things that baffle me... its not Kosher to make any religious comment but posting lyrics like that are fine?

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Peter M.
Cornerstone Guitars
http://www.cornerstoneukes.com

I have been away for a few days and I come back and one of my best buddies is gone!
I really wish Serge will reconsider his decision to leave, I really do, but this really came out of left field.
I always knew that Serge had certain commitments religiously.. and that was part of his make up as a kind and generous individual, but I never saw the insistance to have to mention or identify so personally with it before, as with the thread where this proverbial train wreck occured.
We all have beliefs, and I happen to know that none of us can 100% say that what they believe is the correct or only path to follow to goodness or Godhead, and it is only faith in belief that tells us this is so.
It was once said "nothing is good or evil but thinking makes it so".
I have a hard time with the fact that some people cant discuss something without infusing thier belief system into the conversation, and an even harder time with those who cant respect the beliefs of others.... this alienates others and is not cordial, and while its admirable to be a person who is strong in faith, I dont respect that someone would believe themself to be right to the exclusion of all others.
Likewise do I not believe that someone should push thier beliefs on another.
I agree with John Abercrombie that to someone who is unfamiliar with the OLF, there are strong indications that this is actually a Christian guitarbuilding site at times.... and while I believe that everyone has thier right to the faith they choose, this really isnt the place to discuss faith, as well as this is not a place to discuss politics.
Lance and Brock I stand behind the no politics and religion rule 100%, and hopefully everyone will realize this is not in order to make them deny Christ, or any other religous figure-head, but to keep this place in accord and free of arguments, arguments that would and do INEVITABLY occur without such restrictions.
I feel sad you would leave us Serge , and in such an abrupt manner... we respect your beliefs Serge, and I hope you will consider depriving us of your company.
Cheers
Charliewoe is me

[QUOTE=SteveS] Hank,
Perhaps I don't understand the rules, but I can't imagine that they would include avoiding saying something like "God Bless You" or "I'll be praying for you", especially in the Off Topic area when someone posts about serious personal issues and you know the person is a man or woman of faith.   
Someone please let me know if I am wrong.

Lance,
This is a great forum. Don't lose heart, you are doing a great job!   [/QUOTE]

Steve...I don't frequent the Off Topic section since I'm interested in luthiery. Any of my statements would have been made here and, as you stated, were made to a person of faith. I guess I'm old enough, and have enough "mileage", that various expressions of (pick your subject) tend to roll off my back. Heck, I'm not going to change anyone's opinions by force or argument. All I can do is try, to the best of my feeble abilities, to live my life in a manner so that those folks can see I "walk (stumble?) the talk"....   and I fail at this on an all too regular basis.

As for your comment to Lance re: the Forum...Mega Dittos...to steal a Rush'ism. Oh boy, NOW I've opened the box!

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Hank Mauel

These subjects are so difficult to avoid, because for many people, who they are is partly defined by what their core beliefs are.
An example? Sure...
Irwin just posted a couple verses of a John Lennon tune, which was highly influenced by whatever religion he converted to (Buddhism?..I forget, maybe it was aetheism or something else). He thought it was a neutral expression of well-meaning, but in truth it wasn't at all neutral. It's hard to know. Some folks are just as religious about being anti-religious as the religious....it boils down to respecting other people's right to believe as they see fit.

A person's beliefs are so tightly interwoven into their being that we can't expect an entire seperation from them. All we can do is respect people for who they are, and respect their right to believe what they do, and cross those lines as little as possible in what is a somewhat public forum here.

I don't think that we can demand that people don't say things like "God bless you" or "I'm praying for you" etc. If someone offers you one of those, and you don't happen to believe in any of it, gently let them know that although you don't believe it, you're appreciative of their good intentions. On the other side, if you are tempted to say "GBY" or something similar, and you know the person is not one who appreciates that, try to leave it unspoken. People get their hairs raised easily on both sides of these issues...

Our community has a myriad of people of different religious and political persuasions.
We all are who we are, and we can't be a community without a respect for the rules and for each other.

Don't look down on someone because of their beliefs.

If they build a really crappy guitar, well then....that's a whole other thing. <joke>

_________________
"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

Lance - I also had to go back and dig out what was going on, as I rarely go to the off-topic section. I agree that the missing parties will be missed greatly, but I am behind your position and am honestly having a great deal of difficulty figuring out what they are taking exception to. I agree that discussions of politics and religion just aren't needed as a basis for understanding how our craft progresses. Hank mentions rmmga as an example of what can happen when the impulse is left unchecked. Child's play! Visit rec.woodworking for a while. (maybe its changed - I haven't been there for over a year, and have no desire to check back.)

At its lowest moments, this is still one of the most civil places on the web, and my favorite place to look. It's too bad there are still some thorns in the roses, and that you get pricked by them. (And I'm not calling anyone a thorn, just referring to conceptual, procedural thorns.)

Best wishes, (even though you dissed my classical )

Jim Kirby

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Jim Kirby
kirby@udel.edu

Like Hank, I am interested in guitar building and don't frequent the Off topic section either....

And I agree that this is not a place for religiuos or political arguments but I don't see how saying God Bless or tell someone that you'll be praying for them falls under "argument" ....

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Peter M.
Cornerstone Guitars
http://www.cornerstoneukes.com

I am a man of great Faith and by no means intend to preach or shove my beliefs to anyone...specially at a guitar building forum. However I do not call myself a religious person, and religion can be sometimes the very essence of problems.... But this is not the place for this debate.

Some of the same people that always throw a fit when someone says God Bless you are the same people that ask you to pray for them when trouble arises... go figure.


I have never argued religion on a non religious forum and if praying for someone is considering a discussion then I am really lost.

As a matter of fact I am now PRAYING that Serge reconsider leaving and returns to this great forum.

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Peter M.
Cornerstone Guitars
http://www.cornerstoneukes.com

over time, there have been numerous reminders from the moderators about the policy of leaving religion, politics, and crude language out of our posts, out of the forum.

like some others, i very seldom go to the off topic section and was unaware that there was a contoversy until i saw lance's post in this thread.

pleading that some religious messages should be allowed totally defeats the purpose of the policy. if that then why not allow "some" political messages, or just a bit of foul language since "boys must be boys", eh, and we have freedom of speech, don't we, and down the slippery slope we go.

perhaps a year and a half ago after there was an ongoing breach, i said to lance then that as the forum grew, the lack of firm enforcement of forum policy would lead to problems. it is not without good reason that the mimf firmly enforces a similar policy. i would have preferred that the moderators have been more firm in their enforcement over the ensuing time, and perhaps we would not have the problem now.

that being said, i support their action, and hope they continue to be firm in this regard.

[QUOTE=Hesh1956]

What I am exploring is that perhaps we can retain the rules of no religious, political talk and no swearing and still permit people to express themselves in the languages of their various cultures and beliefs. Tolerance, not permitting preaching, but simply not defining “religious” content by the inclusion of the word God, Jesus, or any other words that are associated by some or all with religion.
In my view our community already does this to a degree. “Your Prayers are needed” as threads have been titled is an example of what I speak of. When someone replies “May God BlessYou” is yet another example. These very expressions have been present on the OLF before and in my view are positive expressions in the languages of the members making the pronouncements.

[/QUOTE]

I agree hesh I wouldnt want anyone to think that the opposition is to such generic faith phrases as "God Bless You", or "Ill pray for you". Genuine care for another is exprssed there
I dont think this is the issue, or irritates anyone extremely.
But on the other hand, I Love Serge, but some of his statements were a little heavy handed in this instance,
IMHO
when something Serge said like
" i chose Jesus because He is the way, the truth and the life and that i will not worship anything less than The Creator of the earth and the universe Himself. "

OK, now Im a little rusty in scripture but I believe Jesus is "the Way, the Truth, and the Light"
but thats irrelevant to the point Im trying to make.
This statement above implies that Jesus is the creator of everyone, whether you believe it or not - this is saying >Jesus is your creator - even if you dont believe that he is!<
Whether it was intended this way or not I think this could cause a severe misunderstanding, if someone were Hindu, Islamic, Buddist, or any other denomination, dont you?
Also a statement like
"There are other subjects that would be worth posting here for spiritual concerns but i will wait as i feel that some of our brothers here would not be ready yet to accept as truth."
to me this implies that someone whos not ready to accept what Serge is laying down is somehow spiritually immature, or not intelligent enough to get it, which I think is demeaning.
Even the title of the thread {even though obviously mercury is something you would want to keep out of your kids bodies}
"if you love your children" implies that if you dont agree with what is put forth in the discussion, you somehow dont love your children, does it not?

As I said I really have grown to respect and care for Serge a great deal but I dont think enough thought went into the phrasing of some of his statements in this particular case. Mabye this is also a result of removing the edit button, I dont know?!?!?!
Cheers
Charliewood

Kinda rips the heart right out of the OLF. Hesh said it all very well. I've talked to Serge, too (he's my best friend I've never met). He just doesn't think that he can carry on conversations without his faith showing. You know, in my opinion, it's not the great knowledge of lutherie that we share here that makes the OLF #1 by a long shot. The same knowledge is available on the other forums. What makes this place so much better is the personalites of the people involved and the personality that that imparts to the forum itself. And I include the personalities of our administrators in this.   If we can't accept that people are different and exhibit tolerance, take some things or people with a grain of salt, and let some things slide off our backs, then we will self destruct.   We managed to do this very well when there were only 300 - 400 members, but it gets exponentially harder with growth.    If Serge is indeed gone, we have suffered a tremendous loss.    Information is available everywhere but real friends are hard to come by.

Ron

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OLD MAN formerly (and formally) known as:

Ron Wisdom

Somewhere in the middle of Arkansas......

[QUOTE=charliewood]


OK, now Im a little rusty in scripture but I believe Jesus is "the Way, the Truth, and the Light"


Charliewood
[/QUOTE]

"The Way, The Truth, and The Life" John 14:6

Ton

_________________
OLD MAN formerly (and formally) known as:

Ron Wisdom

Somewhere in the middle of Arkansas......

[QUOTE=charliewood]
I agree hesh I wouldnt want anyone to think that the opposition is to such generic faith phrases as "God Bless You", or "Ill pray for you". [/QUOTE]

Charlie, I SERIOUSLY disagree (in a nice way )with you in the above statement....

I had people email me or PM me because I made such statements...
In one case of of our members had gone through surgery and some of us posted best wishes and "I'll pray for you" comments (i was one of them) that led me to get a couple of emails to let me know how offended they where by such comments...
Go figure....(again)

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Peter M.
Cornerstone Guitars
http://www.cornerstoneukes.com