Official Luthiers Forum!

John Elshaw-
Thanks for the Vicovic link- great playing.
re: the original Chapdelaine video
Before watching the vid of the 'master class' I wasn't that much a fan of Segovia's playing anyway - the video showing his 'human side' doesn't add to his appeal at all.

John A.

Wow, that was amazing really.

Now I know nothing about the classical guitar world but it's obvious to me that there are true master's of the craft there and who ever they are, they have earned their respect.

What I found really cool was at the end of the MC interview, Michael found himself "getting it". The other thing that I found great was the MC was very respectful of Segovia, even after 3 sessions of maybe harsh critique.

It's always a great student who can glean from such an experience even when he thinks he is totally prepared and at the top of his game.

Thanks for enlightening us with the classics and showing us the other side of the coin.

_________________
My Facebook Guitar Page

"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson

[QUOTE=Rod True] Wow, that was amazing really.

Now I know nothing about the classical guitar world but it's obvious to me that there are true master's of the craft there and who ever they are, they have earned their respect.

What I found really cool was at the end of the MC interview, Michael found himself "getting it". The other thing that I found great was the MC was very respectful of Segovia, even after 3 sessions of maybe harsh critique.

It's always a great student who can glean from such an experience even when he thinks he is totally prepared and at the top of his game.

Thanks for enlightening us with the classics and showing us the other side of the coin.[/QUOTE]

Dinggggggg! someone else got out of it what I did.

I watched the video clip and had a completely different reaction to it than most.

While I have built classical guitars for a long time, my background is that I went to Julliard to study music composition and opera. As a composition major at Julliard in order to be able to write for an instrument you first had to pass a freshman level proficiency test on that instrument and that applied for every instrument in the orchestra! The idea was that if you cant play the instrument and understand what is characteristic of that instrument, then what you write for that instrument will not reflect that instrument to the point that it may be unplayable.

What Segovia objected to in MC playing was that he was not following the tradition of the piece and was playing instead a much more sentimentalized version of the piece by changing the flow of the piece, the voicing and use of portamento...This is what Segovia was measuring him against and while MC felt crushed by Segovia's assessment, in retrospect it was just what he needed to hear.

I have sat through many master classes and while you want to hear nothing but approval, it is the criticism that is much more valuable than the praise. In most master classes all of the participants are in the room together for the entire session. The pressure is that you want to look good among your peers as well as to the master.

I had a friend who was a promising opera baritone that was in a master class we had with George London who was just as brutally honest as Segovia had been with Michael, to the point that London stopped the session and recommended that my friend start over relearning everything he knew about singing! While it was a bitter message to hear, it was needed because George London was an incredible bass baritone that blew out his voice far before his time because of poor vocal technique (although it was blamed on health issues).

I had a piano teacher (Paul Jacobs) who insisted that the only notes worth playing were the ones played with excellence and would make you start over if even a single note was not perfect in the context of the piece being played. His criticism was harsh but just in that if a player wanted to be able to play at a professional level, nothing less than excellence should be the goal.

I took that lesson learned and have applied to to every time I pick up an instrument and the result is that I am more thoughtful of what is being played and how I am playing it. When I heard MC talk about his experience I could hear that he was a changed person because of the experience...I guarantee you that his memories of the lessons learned from Segovia had a profound effect on his approach to playing.

While I have built classical guitars for a long time, one of the reasons why I went to the Romanillos guitar building class last year and will again this year, is to learn from Jose Romanillos what parts of my building are in need to refining or redirection. I see this as my master class and will take any criticism just as readily as any praise.

For those interested in taking the class, Jose is by far the most gentle and accepting person and even when he was helping people who were far over their head, his goal was to get them back on track and self sufficient. His son Liam has worked for the last 30 years with his dad building and is a master in his own right. Liam and 1-2 other builder/assistants keep the class on track but it is the inspirational guidance from Jose that everyone enjoys.

The only thing I will tell you that could be take as overly critical of Segovia. is that during that same master class, there was a young female that he gave a hundred times more leniency and over sight with. Now I got this information at a small intimate performance by Michael that I was fortunate to attend, where he told us the story behind this video. Michael had no hard felling about his conflict with Segovia but only surprised by the two handedness of his teaching.

Back to my post early talking about Michael's clown aspect to his personality. He prefers to play bare foot. a funny little quirk in itself. but a a black tie concert on a major world stage, as he started to walk on stage in Tux and bare feet He was stop by this country's security agent and told he had to put something on his feet or he would not be permitted to take the stage. So he went back to the dressing room and returned to stage wearing a Tux and diving flippers and went directly and straight faced into Ave' Maria before the MC could say a word

There's a difference between being critical and constructive and just
being critical.

Some of you may know that creative writing is a serious hobby of mine
and that I've been in school working towards and English credential with a
special focus on literacy development for English Language Learners.
One professor said my writing was pretentious. Another said, "Your
writing is very poetic. I'd like to see..." and went from there. One helped
me improve, the other just made me feel like the B I got in her class was
the congressional medal of honor.

I appreciate what Jim said above. The goal of teaching should be to build
an autonomy in your student; which includes being critical AND
supportive. This doesn't have to be in the name of self-esteem either---
see Jean Piaget's work on autonomy for more on that. When you take the
high-art, overly opinionated, slow to explain, approach that Segovia took
in this video, the student might be lucky to come away with something to
improve. Usually they'll just walk away knowing they didn't please the
instructor.

More than that, they're only able to improve when the insructor is present
because the instructor's only saying, "yes!" or "no!" without much
ellaboration. . . the ellaboration is where all the education comes
from.

Parallel it to parenting styles. Parents who explain their reasoning and
asks their children for input have children who can adapt well, have good
social skills, and typically have higher academics. The parents who take
the, "because I said so!" approach usually have children who need a lot of
direction.

Shawn, I agree wholeheartedly.

A bit of information that may be useful in understanding this video clip. Michael released his Ponce CD and it is widely regarded not only as the probably the best Ponce recording extant. I adore this CD.

In the liner notes Michael writes about this session with Segovia, and how it completely transformed his playing. Listening to Michael's playing in the clip, being intimately familiar with his playing on the CD, I found the playing quite bad. Yes, he hit all the notes and was on time, but that is all you can say. It's an entirely different discipline than steel string playing, where you are usually improvising where you go. Here, it's all about interpreting something written down. People literally spend years on a piece - not to learn the fingering, you can do that in a few days, but to learn to get to the heart of the piece.

Segovia got Michael to the heart of Ponce in just a few days, something Michael didn't accomplish after a year of studying the piece. Michael wasn't being polite in the interview, but properly amazed at having had an entirely new and unimagined level of musicality awakened in him. In so many ways he owes his career to this master class.

[QUOTE=MichaelP] The only thing I will tell you that could be take as overly critical of Segovia. is that during that same master class, there was a young female that he gave a hundred times more leniency and over sight with. Now I got this information at a small intimate performance by Michael that I was fortunate to attend, where he told us the story behind this video. Michael had no hard felling about his conflict with Segovia but only surprised by the two handedness of his teaching.[/QUOTE] Michael, I've also heard this story. My hypothetical question is, who was this girl? I bet she isn't an internationally renowned player, though I could be wrong. Perhaps Segovia focused his attention on a performer who was clearly great, but really blowing it with his sentimental and out of style performance. Why eviserate somebody who is never going to reach the heights of performance anyway?

It has been several years ago now since I heard Michael tell the story. I think but cant remember for sure that he said she was a student at Juilliard (sp?) at the time and is now or was at the time he told the story, a Junior College Professor of music.

You are right by the way! Michael said that despite the tone of the lesson; he came away a better player almost immediately.

I love most of Michael work. Both classical and modern. Like I said before I adore his original work. In particular "Land of Enchantment" and in person in an informal gathering he is a nut on stage.

With regard to Segovias two handedness, I must admit that at the master classes I attend with my teacher he is always much more critical of the playing of his exceptionally talented post-grad students than he is of my playing. Though he did once say to the gathering after I had been trying to play some Dowland that one of his other students had been trying "See, Colin got it right, and he can't even play the guitar!" That's not exactly what he meant, but how it came out. Still when you play like me you get used to criticism.

Colin

_________________
I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

BEEN THERE MY FRIEND

Segovia was notoriously famous for abusing guitarists.

John williams tells the story of being a 15 year old student.
Segovia used to enter John williams into guitar competitions, making it well known that williams was his pupil.
Williams' mother had become concerned that he was devoting too much time to the guitar and not enough to his school studies and so decided that it might be prudent to not attend one of these competitions.
Segovia telephones Williams and abuses him.
Swearing roundly in spanish.
Williams, in his film profile, says that there are things in Segovias personality that are key to things that are musical.

Tarrega's followers such as pujol are well known for looking down upon Segovia.
I'm not surprised at segovia's dislike for them.
Segovia himeself seems to have been hyper sensitive about his own feelings and totally disrespectful to the feelings of others.

I've seen film of Segovia abusing master class students before, and he abuses them for fingering changes etc.
"But maestro, its your fingering"
To which the maestro makes ammendments to his own fingerings and hands the manuscript back to the student.
He strikes me more as an alpha male who went on to be an alpha guitarist.

Claire

A friend of mine is the head of trumpet studies at the local state school,
and his personality is dratically different the moment he's with his
students. I don't like it. Sometimes the criticalness that goes along with
this level of study isn't about becoming a better musician, it's just part of
the hazing.      

[QUOTE=rlabbe]
Segovia got Michael to the heart of Ponce in just a few days, something Michael didn't accomplish after a year of studying the piece. In so many ways he owes his career to this master class. [/QUOTE]

If you go over to Google groups rec.music.classical.guitar and read the ongoing conversation about this exact masterclass, several people know MC very well and say to this day he feels he never recovered from this masterclass and that in a way it blacklisted him in the classical guitar world because he didn't have the approval of Segovia. I doubt the class helped him develop musically in any way, but it sure would have given him motivation to prove the master wrong. After all, he did win the GFA classical guitar competition 5 years prior to this masterclass so he was already a very proficient player.

Roger,

I really love Michael's Ponce...when I first listened to it I was mesmerized and played it through several times in a row.

There are some guitarists who when I hear their rendition of a particular composer piece becomes the measure in my memory of what a piece should sound like...his Ponce is definitive.

Personally I like that Michael has a quirky personality and hasnt felt that he had to only stick to the traditional repetiore. There are far too many players who are boring players who may be technically good but not very moving.

As far as people judging a player because of a lack of Segovia's approval, I have heard that but take it with a grain of salt. I am much more leary of the number of players (and guitar builders) who had in some cases a single encounter with Segovia but feel compelled to evoke Segovias name as a tacit sign of approval or to state that he played the guitar that they built (when he may have just look and it a played a few lines).

Over a long professional career I am sure that there were 100's that attended master classes and such with Segovia but there were very few students that studied one on one with Segovia.

After watching this video I would say that Segovia was senile at this point in his life. In no way should he have commanded over this master class. His petty picking apart the score and reminiscing of his past conquers the hand gestures are evident on his poor mental state.

The one thing positive I get from this video is the self-determination of an impressionable young man who obviously has the strength of character to be successful. Bravo! Bravo! Michael.
   

_________________
Michael Lloyd

“I was born to ignorance, yes, and lesser poverties ...
I was born to privilege that I did not see ... I didn’t know it, but my way was paved” – John Gorka

I'm of a similar opinion to Shawn.  I have been to, not played in, master classes with Christopher Parkening, pre break, Michael Lorimer, Angel Romero, Pepe Romero, Christopher Berg, Manuel Barrueco, Aaron Shearer, as well as others, I can't remember off the top of my head.  Some of those were attended by individuals currently the heads of the guitar departments at a number of universities offering guitar programs. I can honestly say that none had an occurrance like the one in the clip, but they all had very embarrassing moments for players.  Don't think I ever saw one where someone didn't get pretty well blasted for fingering, interpretation, posture, hand position, or something like that.  The one thing I did learn, though, from those who had studied with Segovia, was that they all considered him to be a great master, but also a very self centered, vain, individual.  Also, anyone who came to a Segovia class unprepared was pretty summarily dismissed.  It was apparently not all that unusual.  I think it was pretty well known that if you are going to play for him, you used his fingerings, and transcriptions if available. He wasn't there to hear someones different interpretations of work he had already done.  He was there to break the bad habits and make a person focus on his technical skills, much like the Drill Sergeant at Boot Camp.  Break em down and build em up.  I won't argue that many have not passed him in technical abillity, but many of his interpretations were really great.

_________________
Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

I thought Ana’s version was incredibly more enjoyable than Segovia’s

Also, though Segovia deserves much respect for his experience and accomplishments, and, yes
criticism is an integral part of growth, for anyone who has the desire to be more than who they
are, I feel that, sometimes, the “Masters” have a tendency to stifle individualism.

BTW, did I say how much I LOVE classical guitar music?

Robert

_________________
Everything has beauty, But, not everyone see's it!

I see what you are saying, but perhaps the comparison highlights mostly differences due to age. Ana plays very strong, youthful, and quick where Segovia is likely very close to 80 years old and I suspect has lost much and is forced to play more commensurate with his age.

I wonder what Ana's version will be like when she is 80.

The message that 'standards are high and you need to dig in' is an important message. To his credit, MC seemed to find that message in the big load of guano delivered by Segovia. I would much rather listen to Mike being Mike than Mike playing like Segovia.

Personally, I didn't like Ana's version.  I have heard it played by so many, with great interpretation,  I found hers to be, IMO, a tad too blurry, and a little over-played in some places.  ISTM that she lost the beauty of the piece in sort of sluring over those background notes and the bass line. One interpretation I liked very much was the John Williams version played in the Seville Concert.  You hear all the notes very clearly without loss of tempo.  He really plays each note instead of slurring over them.  Also, his dynamics are incredible.

I also wonder if she will be a sought after guitarist when she is older, or will she just sort of fade into the background like so many other good players.

_________________
Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

I'm currently working on Asturias with my teacher, you ought to hear my version. I play all the right notes, just not necessarily in the right order! (Apologies to Eric Morecombe, you've got to be British)

Colin

_________________
I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

I memorized it about 15 - 18 years ago, didn't know any better than to think I couldn't play it, and was able to get through it, but not at any level to brag on.  Now, I would be hard pressed to play anything solo, since I spend all my time playing in an ensemble.  It develops bad habits when you are not studying solo work with a teacher, and playing your one part, of four or five, is so much easier.

_________________
Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

I once took a drawing course at the local adult ed program. In my course there was the one student who we all thought was light years ahead of the rest of us. One class the instructor was walking around commenting on our current drawings. She stopped at this guy's drawing and just layed into it. She pointed out many things that could have been done better and seemed to find nothing good to say about the drawing.

Next, she looked at my work. She made some slight comment like "that's nice" or "try a darker pencil" and moved on to the next student.

The guy she criticized seemed a bit bummed by it. I, on the other, got the message. "Don't quit your day job"

Since then, I've learned that if the teacher takes the time really examine and critique your work, you're probably doing something right regardless of how brutal the critique might be. To paraphrase Oscar Wilde "The only thing worse than a harsh critique is no critique at all".

[QUOTE=Colin S] I'm currently working on Asturias with my teacher, you ought to hear my version. I play all the right notes, just not necessarily in the right order! (Apologies to Eric Morecombe, you've got to be British)

Colin[/QUOTE]

Hi Colin, If you haven't worked too much on the piece yet, you might want to take a look at the transcription by Stanley Yates. He stays very true to the original piano piece (more so than most transcriptions) and his version doesn't rely on speed so much to bring out the emotion of the piece. You can download it for free from his website here:

Stanley Yates Downloads

Good luck on the piece!

John