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Well, my son started learning some classical pieces and they sound wonderful. So I took him to a Guitar Center to have him try out some classical guitars. He loved the feel and sound of the style so I decided to build one. The only problem is...I don't know where to begin. I have Cumpiano's book and can build the model he recommends or something else.

I was hoping I could get some advice on where folks think I should begin. Any models or plans I should consider? Any better books I should purchase?

I was thinking IRW and WRC for the woods along with a good old mahogany neck...but I'm open to other options.

TIA for the advice.

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

Great choice of woods. as I a pretty new to classical building I can't give much advice but WRC and IRW are is a great combo.

JJ, I don't pretend to be any authority on anything guitarmaking related, but I liked the Courtnall Book a lot.  It lets you compare the designs and features of a number of historically significant builders, has the plans in the book, although small versions, and takes the process through to completion.  It is expensive, as books go, but is highly informative, and gives a lot of history and, IMO, understanding about design features of classicals.  It is also a really nice book.  Pretty good price at Amazon - here.

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Waddy

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Sound Clips of most of my guitars

Another book that you might like is bogdanovich's book.  He builds his classicals more like a steel string.  Completed box with a dovetail or M&T neck, as I recall.  It is available a number of places for a very good price. I think I got if for $18.00.  It is also a nice book, and has great pictures of construction techniques in color.  Also a nice section on how to make the wheat purfling.  Here are several sources where it is less than $20.00.  Also a really nice book.

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Waddy

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Sound Clips of most of my guitars

Thanks Waddy...great books to consider. Since I never even considered making a classical until last weekend, I consider myself a rank novice and would like to know about how to select the right model and construction technique. For example...what are the ramifications of traditional building techniques vs. more modern techniques as used in steel string construction? I'm open to either method right now.

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

If this is a one of for your son, then I would use what ever neck construction method you are comfortable with. If you plan to build classical for commissions in the future then I would say learn the Spanish heel method as most classical clientele will expect this type of neck construction.

I am not knocking Cumpiano's book, but felt it was sort of trying to cover too much territory in one book.  I found it hard to follow switching back and forth between classical and steel string construction.

As to your not knowing which way to go, I'm sure you'll find lots of opinions.  Most hard-core classical builders, though, seem to go with a Spanish foot, construction technique.

I, personally, chose to follow the Romanillos construction design and technique for my first.  The process seemed very logical to me, and there is a lot of information available in the Archives.

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Waddy

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Sound Clips of most of my guitars

No Bogdanovich uses the traditional Spanish heel in his book.

If your comfortable with Spanish heel construction then any of the standard Torres or Hauser based plans available from SM, LMI etc would be fine and just follow Cumiano if you've got it already for the details that differ from Steel string. I believe one of the sells a pre-made neck with Spanish heel.

If you want to stay more in the comfort zone and would feel happier with a bolt on neck then the Fleta plan would be better for you. Russell Rose over here built his first classical using the Fleta plan with a bolt on neck and it produced a fine guitar.

Colin

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I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

Sorry!  I know I saw it recently, but, now I guess I can't remember where.  Either way, his book is a nice book, and relatively inexpensive.

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Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

I like the wood choice, I would probably opt for span. cedar neck. I personlly like David Schramms hauser CD, Rob O'brien's is really good too. I haven't seen them but there is a new set of 1937 Hauser plans that lmii sells. Like Waddy said, Courtnall is great, but it's expensive. Bogdonavich has great pictures and a nice approach, he does laminated sides. I still probably refer to cumpiano more than any.

Spanish heel is all I know, but if you are only going to build just one classical and you are a SS builder, I would probably take Michael's advice and do neck construction you are familiar with and not the spanish heel. On the other hand there are limited plans and resources on building classicals without spanish heel.

I like the Schramm CD.  I have it too.  Very informative.  I do not have Robbie's DVD, but keep hearing good things about it too.  I'll probably break down and buy it too.  My library is getting pretty extensive.  I love to see how talented people do things.

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Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

I also like the Bogdanovich book. It gives a very thorough visual story without sacrificing explanation. It involves more form building than a typical Spanish style build. The more traditional style is described in Courtnall's book, which is also very good.

I have had good early success with the Rodriguez plan (GAL) of Tom Blackshear's. This is a very large guitar, though - doesn't fit in a standard classical case, etc. I'm near to finishing one in IR, WRC with a spanish cedar neck and cocobola trim.   Couple of pics here. Still need to finish neck shaping, sand out cooties on top, level sand the Z-Poxy, and FP everything.

This guitar has a standard Spanish heel, and was built following David Schramm's course based on the same plan (never finished). This is the third I've built from this plan.

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Jim Kirby
kirby@udel.edu

First; as tell every beginner, DON'T compare plans now. You'll just end up confused. Pick one and build that.

If you're used to the plug-in neck, by all means make it that way. More classical makers than you might think use one version or other of a plug-in; they just make the block with a slipper foot so it looks 'traditional'. Do be careful about the neck angle, though; remember that classical guitars use higher action.

The differences between classical and steel string guitars start with the strings. Steel strings weigh more, have higher tension, and have much more of their energy in the high frequency end of the spectrum. The acoustic problem with steel strings is to get enough bass to balance the treble, and you have to do it with a top that is pretty heavily braced to take the tension. With nylon strings, the problem is to not lose any of the little treble that the strings have, but at least you don't generally have to worry about getting enough bass.

The key to making a good classical, IMO, is to get the lightest and stiffest top you can. It turns out that it's easier to keep the top light if you make the guitar small. Large classicals, like the Rodriguez model, are often on the edge of not working, and require some skill to get right. I try to encourage my students making thier first classical to build smething on the lines of a Torres or Hauser model, as these are quite reliable, and it's hard to argue that they can't sound good.

I presume you have enough experience to know that cedar will dent if you think hard about it.

If you do want to make a big classical, then I'd suggest using a 12-fret 000 plan, with the X braced top. Make the bracing much lighter than you would for a steel string. You can leave out the bridge plate, and use a standard classical bridge, which will keep people in the future from trying to put steel strings on it. I've made two of these, and they work great.   

Lots of good info...thanks for the comments.

A few more questions:

1) According to LMI, the Fleta plan (which according to Colin is a M&T neck) is described as a larger-bodied guitar. I believe I prefer something smaller and of more standard size. Are any of those sizes (Torres or Hauser) drawn up using an M&T or would it be obvious for me to convert the plans to the more familiar neck?

2) Besides WRC, what other top woods should I consider?

3) What are the typical thicknesses used for backs & sides (IRW)?

4) If I use an M&T neck, do I build the body in a mold similar to those that I've used for steel strings?

TIA

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

I like the Hauser Sr. 1946 plans. They would be easy to convert to M&T neck but you would need to plan out the neck on your own as the plans are Spanish heel. They are available through LMI and other places.

Other tops I would consider Carpathian and or German Spruce They will not dent as easy. Sitka is ok also.

The back I am currently building is .09 or 2.3mm thick

JJ - Comfort is a concern with the large ones. Not to be a contrarian w/r Al,who knows a zillion times more than me, but I found the Rodriguez to give good results at my modest level of experience, and this was confirmed by the local UD guitar Prof., who said it was surprisingly well balanced for its size and my experience.

He did say, though, that he wouldn't be able to play the guitar all the time - it's just too big, and he found it uncomfortable to put his arm around.

I'm going to be trying guitars based on the Romanillos design for the next batch. But I've heard Jose quoted as saying that his are hard to get right, but I'm not sure what aspect the comment was in regard to.

Jim

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Jim Kirby
kirby@udel.edu

I think Jose said that his guitars were not easy to play.  My understanding of meaning is that if you attack one of his guitars, which, I've heard, are very responsive, with a heavy hand, you will not get good results.  You have to learn to let the guitar do the work.  A lighter hand will get better results.

From Shawn's posts, Romanillos also liked the Lutz Spruce that he has seen.

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Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

JJ

I am a first time builder who is getting ready to close box #1 so i do not have a lot of experience. Being a newbie, I had a lot of apprehension in getting started. Before taking the plunge, I had purchased Cumpiano's book, O'Brien's DVD, Schramm's Hauser CDROM and Bogdanovich's book. These are all very good references and I have been through each of them several times, as a first time builder though, I am using Bogdanovich's book. There are so many illustrations that it just guides be through the process.

I could not make up my mind, so I am currently building both the Miguel Rodriguez, and the Manuel Reyes guitars based on Tom Blackshear's plans. Both are being made out of Spanish Cedar necks, Coco backs and sides with German Moon-Spruce tops. I will keep the one I like best and give the other away.

I was terrified with the concept of carving a neck using the traditional Spanish heel approach and considered using a more modern bolt on design. The first 2 necks turned out to be what Robbie in his DVD refers to as expensive firewood. My second 2 attempts actually turned out pretty good and I am not as apprehensive as I once was. I think I have it down now, but if I were to do it over again I would have bought some 2nd grade blanks from LMII to practice on before carving up the good stuff.

Best of luck and welcome to the classical side. (Sorry guys not trying to stir it up, just trying to be funny)

Darin

I have a spare set of drawings for the Antonio de Torres guitar SE114, ca.1888. This is a moderately-sized guitar
by present standards, drawn by Jeffrey Elliott, and quite
a history lesson. An excellent reference if nothing else.
Contact me if you are interested and I will send you the drawings gratis. Also, it's quite difficult to get good
trebles out of Sitka (in general; there are always exceptions). I love spruce for classicals, but not Sitka. Food for thought, anyway. :-)

I use mainly Spanish Cedar on my classical necks...a bit easier to work than mahogany.

Cheers Martin

In measuring the properties of a lot of pieces of top wood, I've found that they all tend to fall pretty close to the same line when you plot out the results as stiffness along the grain against density. Since the limiting factor in how thin you can make the top is the stiffness along the grain that takes the static load of the strings (at least, to a first approximation), in that respect all top woods are much the same. In that respect, it turns out that you'll end up with a lighter weight top if you choose wood that has low density, and it almost doesn't matter which species you use.

This is _not_ to say that Sitka sounds like Cedar: there are other things besides stiffness/weight that probably go into that. It is saying that, if you choose a low density piece of Sitka it might sound better (or, at least, louder) than if you had used a denser piece of European.

All woods vary a lot in density; that's why I'm bothering to measure. On the average, Cedar is lighter, followed by Englemann, Euro, Redwood, Red spruce, and Sitka. Again, I have to emphasise that those are generalizations: some of the densest pieces I have are Englemann, and I have some very light Euro and Sitka.

I generally make EIR backs about 2.5mm (.100"). Habit, as much as anything.    

[QUOTE=WaddyT] I think Jose said that his guitars were not easy to play. My understanding of meaning is that if you attack one of his guitars, which, I've heard, are very responsive, with a heavy hand, you will not get good results. You have to learn to let the guitar do the work. A lighter hand will get better results.From Shawn's posts, Romanillos also liked the Lutz Spruce that he has seen.
[/QUOTE]

Thanks for clearing that up for me Waddy.

Yep, Shane graced me with a batch of Lutz from the tail end of his supply (not implying tail end of quality though!!), and the Romanillos clones are going to be getting a couple of those.

Jim

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Jim Kirby
kirby@udel.edu

I'd get Robbie O'Brien's DVD (I have and find it useful) and a set of Hauser Sr. plans.

JJ...if you are going to build more than a few classicals you at some point should try a spanish heel design, just so you see the differences in construction working from the soundboard to the back as opposed to the "build the box first and then attach the neck" approach of a mortise and tenon neck joint steel string guitar.

There are successful classical builders who build with a Cumpiano style bolt on neck...Thomas Humphrey builds that way but the reason behind it is that both he and William Cumpiano worked in Michael Gurian's shop at the same time and their construction styles became similar other than Cumpiano focusing more on Steel String and Humphrey classicals.

I built with a traditional spanish heel and slotted neck for 20+ years before adopting the Romanillos wedged neck design. It gives you all of the advantages of a mortise and tenon neck joint but is still firmly based in Spanish construction. The best documentation of that joint is in Roy Courtnall's book.

As far as the playability and buildability of Jose Romanillos' guitars...

Jose builds to a very high degree of craftsmanship and if you use a v joint neck it is much more difficult than a splice joint head but when done right the look is excellent and highlights the skill of the builder. That may be more than you want to tackle. When he says that his guitars are hard to get right...He builds very light and wants to stay as close to a Torres as possible. To build very light is always courting with disaster in that you can easily take a top too thin and the dropoff in sound and focus is immediate.

As far as being hard to play...the feel of his guitars in the hand is very easy. As far as playing heavily...different builders have different concepts of as to how they want their guitar to sound and that affects how they build and voice the guitar.

Jose has handled more Torres guitars than anyone and his approach is that the guitar should respond to the player to find its voice which is very different than other builders that impose their voice on the guitar. He feels that this is part of the essence of the Spanish guitar and feels that alot of the Madris builders who followed Ramirez in building with WRC tops, big bodies and long scale lengths have departed from what made the Spanish sound.

If you play a Fleta or a Friedrich, the sound is good but it is their voice that would come through, sometimes flavoring the sound to the point that the instrument sounds better for a certain style or period than others.

The extreme example of this is Smallman whose guitars are cannons but to many ears sound harsh and metallic. Damman has a very distinct dark voice to his guitars that definitely colors the sound but at least is more listenable than Smallman (in my opinion).

The Torres I have played (one FE, one SE and one Terz size) have a voice that comes out even and responsive regardless of the music but also tend to not like being overplayed. The thing that most impressed me was that you didnt have to play hard to get the projection wanted...it isnt about volume, it is about the sound being able to project.

The vocal equivalent of that was the singer Lily Pons...she did not have a big voice as other opera and leider singers did but her voice could carry across any concert hall because of the quality and projection of her voice.

As far as books, I recently read Bogdanovich's book... it is a good book and very good photos but is more of a steel string approach. Stay away from his wedged heel...please!! Courtnall does the best job of showing the construction and style of a number of great builders and in general has good construction techniques. I would give him a slight edge over Cumpiano mostly because he is all classical whereas Cumpiano's book deals with classical and steel string in parallel which is sometimes confusing.

Shawn...Thanks so much for the excellent advice and summary of your building, playing and listening rationale.

Carey...Many thanks for the offer of the plans...I'm looking forward to studying those as well as other recommendations.

Alan...Thanks, as always for your explanation of topwood and their characteristics as related to classicals. I'm lately favoring some of Shane's very stiff Lutz that I have in my stash.

I feel much like a babe in the woods on this classical build...much like I felt 4 years ago when SS guitars were even more foreign. While I'm tempted to go with the bolt-on neck, I feel like I need to learn the traditional method. I'm reading through the classical portion of C&N that I have ignored for the past few years. It is a good start but I plan to read more as recommended by those skilled in the art.

At the very least, I'll begin building the workboard and other jigs specific for this style.

In the meantime, I appreciate those who can chime in on their experiences.

TIA

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com