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I have a potential client who would like to buy the materials and help me build him a guitar. I`m not sure what kind of compensation would be fair in this type of arrangement? Any suggestions?
                          James

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James W Bolan
Nashville Tennessee

Hmmmm... If anyone wanted to help me build their guitar, I'd charge
about triple the normal cost!

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Mike

"The Dude abides. I don't know about you but I take comfort in that. It's good knowin' he's out there. The Dude. Takin' 'er easy for all us sinners. Shoosh." The Stranger

Just say no.

I think triple the normal instrument cost would be fair to modest. Really.

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Eschew obfuscation, espouse elucidation.

Exactly say no or just decide to help him build a guitar.
If you wish to get paid for the guitar, your name, logo, band identification, signature or warranty is included with this guitar. You do not want the client involved at all in the build outer than setting the basic spec like wood hardware and such.

But if he helps in the build he is no a client he is a student.

He does want to learn the building process.He asked if he could help build his guitar so he could learn.So like you say Micheal he would be a student.So what`s fair compensation for a one on one learning experience for a student? To be honest I feel I have a lot to learn myself about guitar building.And though I have been a carpenter for a living for over 30 years and would probably be considered a master carpenter ,I`m not sure I`m worthy of teaching him about Lutherie.
                        James
               

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James W Bolan
Nashville Tennessee

If this is for a good friend than just help him build it out of generosity.

If it's a 'client' forget it, either you build the whole thing or tell him to get some books and do what you did. You can always give him some pointers, or if he wants to rent shop time from you, you might want to figure out a $/hr type thing, BUT if you do rent shop time, make sure you have insurance to cover yourself and him/her.

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"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson

Rod like Michael said he would actually be a student,and I just recently met him.So generosity is out.
                   James

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James W Bolan
Nashville Tennessee

I've done this several times for friends, and I've always regretted it.

First, I always end up setting up the tools and jigs, because it takes more time to explain how to do it than to do it myself.

Then, I watch their every move nervously, hoping they don't hurt themselves.

Then I have to put all the jigs and tools away, because they don't know where anything goes or how I like it put back.

It always takes more of my time than if I had built the darned thing myself.

If he takes a week of vacation, he can build a guitar in a week at Frank Finocchio's school. Frank includes all of the materials and gives hands on instructions for every step. Last time I looked, his price was $2750 plus room and board, which cost me about $400 for the week while I was there. Then if he wants a case for the guitar, thats another $100 or so.

That will get him a guitar that doesnt have a finish on it. Figure in another $350 for a finish from Tony or some other finisher, and you have somewhere in the $4,000.00 range.

This way, he will have a guitar he built himself and instruction from a world class builder.

Now that that has been said..... if it was one of my very best friends and someone I wasnt worried about hurting themself in my shop, I might would teach them how to build a guitar for around $1,000 to $1,500 plus parts. Make sure they use every tool in your shop and use every jig you have. This will give them some kind of idea what kind of an investment it takes to get into the "business" of building guitars.

 

Many of the woodcraft stores also have guitar building instructors that will walk you through building one. They range from $1,200 up in price plus materials.

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Reguards,

Ken H

That's really a tough call than (not for me though, I wouldn't do it).

Only having 4.5 guitars under my belt, I would be inclined to pass if it weren't a good friend. But that's just me.

I do have a guitar that I am building (or finishing) for a friend who started on his own, with my help. He is a welder by trade and I plan on trading the remaining work and material for the guitar for some steel work for my Landcruiser. I guess it really depends on what you think your time and shop are worth (remember, your time spent helping him is time away from your own work, so it's almost double pay)

Anyway, only you can decide if you want to do this and also what your time is worth to you.

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My Facebook Guitar Page

"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson

Ken ,funny you should mention Woodcraft.He works for Woodcraft.He doesn`t want to take their class .It`s basically just glueing the pieces together.He wants to actually learn how to build a guitar.
                             James

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James W Bolan
Nashville Tennessee

I think you missed the real point to what I said. to treat him as a client you have to provide the the work and he pays for the work. To treat him as student he buys his supply and you provide the tutelage.

If you two wish to come to an agreement for the tutelage then that is up to you. I can tell you you will spend more time on this guitar than yo9u would if you built it. just the nature of teaching.

But what ever you do do not sign a contract or sales order for a guitar. you must be in no way liked to the final product other than giving the instruction. No warranty, no serial # nothing!

James I have no idea if you are or have built for profit with other clients. If you have i assume you have offered a warranty for your instruments. If you are or plan to do this for profit this guitar must not be links to you as a product. This is the students product and the student must understand this.

if you were running a luthierie school well that is a bit different. But you are not that is why this really should be handled as student pays for all and no charge for the teaching if you go forward with this. Oh and the student buys all his own tools and consumables. Wow Lutherie school price just got cheap hua?

Not Knowing the person you really open your self up to major liability issues as well.

The best advise I could give you is to say don't even consider it.

I get people asking for apprenticeships or classes all the time, and
although I may offer them some day, right now it is a straight and certain
"no". I've even had a customer willing to fund the startup of a school, but
it would take more time than I have available to invest right now.

I taught for a few years and I can assure you, every job that may seem
simple starting out will quickly become much more complicated than
when doing it yourself. Teaching certainly forces you to organize your
thoughts and procedures more than you typically do when working solo,
and can help hone your reasoning for what you do, but it takes a lot out
of you.

My dilemma with taking on even informal students or acting as tutor is
this. If I am going to have someone watching me and asking questions,
have to spend time teaching and explaining, it takes time and I have to be
paid for it. If someone is paying for training in a field they have a right to
expect training and knowledge to justify the money they spent. I would
have to charge a lot of money to make it worth my time to have them in
the shop. That means I would have to give them a lot of knowledge and
attention. That means I would have to organize a new course plan,
structured and intentionally laid out. That takes a good deal of time.
Teaching would take time from my repairs, shop upkeep, and so on. I
could forget about me getting back in to building, and probably not
expect to see much of my family at that point either. It's a big vicious
circle that I don't plan on getting in to until I have at least one or two
more employees under me to keep the rest of the shop running.

If you do decide to take this on, you should be sure that the value of
what you have to teach (and therefore the price the client pays for the
lessons) is appropriate compensation for the time you spend teaching. If
you base your time on a $50,000/yr salary, you should be getting at least
$25/hr. Add in insurance (if he's in your shop, he's a liability), space,
bench, tool usage, etc., and you can quickly be charging $50/hr. That
would be at least 2-3 times the rate of the most expensive guitar building
schools. In short, if you want to be fair to both yourself and your student,
you really need several students. It's just very difficult to charge a fair
price to one student, and still receive a fair wage. That's why I refer all my
inquiries to other schools.

If you do decide to take this on, I recommend at least trying to divide and
narrow things down to specific topic tutorials that you can fit in to 3 hour
blocks. Then the client can figure out what they can do on their own, and
come in for assistance in specific areas that they may find overwhelming.
Offer no guarantees as to the final quality of the instrument, and don't let
them use your tools.

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Eschew obfuscation, espouse elucidation.

I've done this for a few close friends for free. Notice the close friends part. They buy everything and I tell them what to do, most is all done in my shop. It's been fun, and very slow. We get together every few weeks for an evening.
There's no way I would do this for someone who's wasn't already a close friend.
It sound like he already has some woodworking skills. Have him buy the Cumpiano book and answer question for him. But he does the work in his shop with his tools.
my $.02.

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Jim Watts
http://jameswattsguitars.com

Thanks guys,a lot of food for thought.You`ve put some valid concerns into this one and I appreciate it.Also as some of you may know I`m down here in Nashville.it seems that this particular person has written some hit songs and knows quite a few prominent musicians here in town.In fact he even teaches guitar to a famous persons daughter.He has offered to promote my guitars as part of the deal.Of course talk is cheap,and I`m not saying that he wouldn`t play this or another one of my guitars for proffessional musicians.I just don`t think I should count on it or base a decision on this factor.Any Thoughts?
                        James

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James W Bolan
Nashville Tennessee

Well, If he's promoting your guitar, it needs to be your guitar, not one he built with you. The instrument won't come out the same as if you did it.
My thoughts anyway.

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Jim Watts
http://jameswattsguitars.com

Hey James I went to college not far from you at MTSU in Murfreesboro. Man I love Middle Tennessee spent a lot of time at Center Hill lake in my teens and twenties

Rod, I think you underestimate yourself and would be very good at
showing someone how to get a guitar in order. Think of all the tutorials
you've done for jigs.

I think the warnings here are probably good, but teaching also has great
benefits. Trust the resiliency of someone's ability to learn. The more I
learn about teaching, and the more I look at what goes on in schools and
textbooks, the more I'm amazed that I can count past 20. He'll pick it up.

I think a good model would be to teach him---Teach him by saying he
will be building his own guitar, not one of yours. Explain why a good top
joint is important and show him a few ways to get one. He'll be able to
get one because he understand why.

Then ask him to order John Mayes' voicing set, show him how to use a
go-bar, and he'll probably have the where-with-all to put the other 16 or
so in place. He'll work through the rest of the top with John, and you can
observe, flex, and tap periodically.

The most difficult part of teaching is remembering to let the student
explore with their mind and do things for themselves. The second
hardest is to stick to time limits. Spend a saturday getting the top glued
up, then spend two hours the next week on the rosette. Then they need
to watch the DVD's, come back, and work on the top.

Don't overload him, but begin with key concepts. Maybe he doesn't need
to think about the difference in back thickness or something yet. Buy a
neck from John Watkins.

I think it will go well because it's more difficult to screw him up than
anything else. Just wanted to add another side to consider.

James, the second part of this scenario is a huge can of worms that I'm not sure you want to open up right now. Where are you at in your experience level in luthiery?

IF this guy does take your guitars to some of these prominent Nashville musicians (that's just scary all on it's own) are you ready for that. The exposure of your guitars to well known musicians in a city such as Nashville can either be very very good or very very bad depending on the quality and sound of your guitars.

Are you ready for that type of exposure?

Sorry, more to ponder, but I think it's something really important to figure out.

_________________
My Facebook Guitar Page

"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson

James Orr,

Thanks

You make some very great points in your thread, more great food for thought.

_________________
My Facebook Guitar Page

"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson

I don't know what the law is like in the US, but over here even if I helped out a friend with no money changing hands. I'd still be liable if he cut off his fingers in my bandsaw.

Hesh, you always think of the important stuff :D

When I built my house, I got all the walls dried in and the roof trusses up for 3 cases of beer. Seemed like a good trade to me :)

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Reguards,

Ken H

Wow Michael,a fellow hillbilly.If your ever in my neck of the woods,look me up.Rod a few pretty fair pickers in town have played one of my guitars ,and were pleased with the sound and playability.Altough to be honest I don`t feel I`m quite ready yet.But I`m willing to work hard to re-fine my building.Besides it`s the most fun I`ve had standing up in a long time.
                            James

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James W Bolan
Nashville Tennessee