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I didn't want to highjack J. Brown's thread about joining tops with fish glue. So, this is a question about using it for gluing fingerboards. A good friend of mine says that he only uses HHG for this because there is no creep - where there can be with LMI and Titebond. Have others used fish glue for this - and how were the results?

Thanks,
Max Bishop
Brighton, Michigan

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Max Bishop
Brighton, Michigan

I use fish glue for a lot of things, but not fingerboards. I believe fish glue, hide glue, LMI and titebond can all cause swelling due to the moisture. I am sold on the idea of epoxy, which should cause no swelling.

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David White, Toronto

"All my favourite singers can't sing."

I use hhg for my Weiss fingerboards and on the last two acoustics I used fish glue. It works fine and I have had no back-bow issues. I use a straight piece of mahogany as a caul (as per Cumpiano) and leave it clamped for 24 hours. I radius/level the fingerboard on the neck and use a free-floating extension over the body:

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Dave White
De Faoite Stringed Instruments
". . . the one thing a machine just can't do is give you character and personalities and sometimes that comes with flaws, but it always comes with humanity" Monty Don talking about hand weaving, "Mastercrafts", Weaving, BBC March 2010

I've just used fish with an ebony FB to a cedro neck and it worked just fine. No twist no bow nothing. 

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Build log

Max buddy I just started using West Systems epoxy for fret boards with a maple gluing caul and it worked great.

I used Titebond for many guitars before that and did have back bow issue more often then not.  I agree with drwhite that any water based glue has a possibility of swelling.  Hence the epoxy.

Max...This is the only joint where I won't use HHG. I had a bad experience on my first with backbow and have been using epoxy ever since. If you decide to use FG, I'd take all of the precautions that Dave White has shown. Good luck!

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

I like to use fish glue to hold two piece of bread together for lunch.   It's called "Tuna Salad"...

Is there something about the possible and probable problems from the use of water based glues for fingerboards that people just don't understand? You may get away with it, but this back bowing isn't just a myth, folks.   Enough of us have experienced it that it's not just a statistical anomaly.   Are you afraid of epoxy?   Is it just not romantic enough?   Are you just so cussed ornery that what some of the best guitar makers on the planet have found to work well just isn't good enough? Then why ask here?   Just slather any old water and wheat flour glue on and find out for yourself why some of us have chosen another path.

Or better yet, build 50 guitars using fish glue for the fingerboard and 50 using epoxy and come back and tell us how it all worked out.   I've built about 1200 with Titebond for the fingerboard joint and another 2,500 or so with either epoxy or polyurethane glue.   My choice is now epoxy, and there's absolutely no reason to even try anything else.

Well, it's water based, so it will cause expansion and swelling of wood just like any other water based glue. Many folks still use water based, but you may have to make a curved caul to anticipate and counter the swelling that may occur, refining the shape over the course of making a few necks. I've used it for a few necks, but there's certainly good reason for many folks switching to epoxy over the years in my opinion.

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Eschew obfuscation, espouse elucidation.

And he wants ME to change my tag to Feisty.....



Fish glue: the new cure-all!  until the next new cure-all....










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[QUOTE=Rick Turner]
Is there something about the possible and probable problems from the use of water based glues for fingerboards that people just don't understand?[/QUOTE]

No

[QUOTE]Are you afraid of epoxy?[/QUOTE]

No - I just hate the stuff, apart from the finishing resin.

[QUOTE]Is it just not romantic enough?[/QUOTE]

Well, epoxy isn't at the top of my fantasy list. Fish glue though . . . . Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

[QUOTE]Are you just so cussed ornery that what some of the best guitar makers on the planet have found to work well just isn't good enough?[/QUOTE]

Yes.


[QUOTE]I've built about 1200 with Titebond for the fingerboard joint and another 2,500 or so with either epoxy or polyurethane glue.[/QUOTE]

1,200 is a hell of a learning curve to figure out cause and effect of backbow - either that or you had the shoemakers elves making them overnight for you.

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Dave White
De Faoite Stringed Instruments
". . . the one thing a machine just can't do is give you character and personalities and sometimes that comes with flaws, but it always comes with humanity" Monty Don talking about hand weaving, "Mastercrafts", Weaving, BBC March 2010

Hey Max...you should be flattered by the interest this thread has gotten!

It's not everyone who can say that they got attention from both of our lovable curmudgeons in the same thread! BTW...it was in fact, Mario who advised me 4 years ago about using Epoxy for this joint...before he was Grumpy!

While I don't consider FG as a cure-all, and I don't believe it's being presented as such, I believe it has its place. I could never have made a repair on a significantly busted guitar had not David Collins introduced me to FG. David's vast experience and attention to detail, that rivals anyone on this or any other forum, is in large part why I would ever have considered this alternative in the first place. Thanks, David!

And while I have no problem using HHG for joining plates, I will try FG on my next build...largely because I've tested it over the past year. HHG will continue to be my choice for the other joints. I hope to be able to qualify FG so that I can eventually use either... "depending on my mood".

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

[QUOTE=Dave White] [QUOTE=Rick Turner]



[QUOTE]Is it just not romantic enough?[/QUOTE]



Well, epoxy isn't at the top of my fantasy list. Fish glue though . . . . Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm



[QUOTE]Are you just so cussed ornery that what some of the best guitar makers on the planet have found to work well just isn't good enough?[/QUOTE]



Yes.





[QUOTE]I've built about 1200 with Titebond for the fingerboard joint and another 2,500 or so with either epoxy or polyurethane glue.[/QUOTE]



1,200 is a hell of a learning curve to figure out cause and effect of backbow - either that or you had the shoemakers elves making them overnight for you.[/QUOTE]

Hysterical Rick and Dave!!!

Max buddy West Systems is available at Stadium Hardware in A2 - want me to bring you some next week or the week after when we have lunch?

I am going to be using Smiths epoxy from LMI on my next three, which will be getting boards this month.

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Lance@LuthiersForum.com

[QUOTE=LanceK] I am going to be using Smiths epoxy from LMI on my next three, which will be getting boards this month. [/QUOTE]

Thats exactly my plan, too. Mine should arrive today.

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“If God dwells inside us like some people say, I sure hope He likes enchiladas, because that's what He's getting”
-jack handy

That 1,200 number was for Alembics...1971 to 1978, and yes, I did have some elves, but I did the machine rough carve on each and every one of them. It wasn't 'til I left Alembic and had the chance to catch my breath that I reconsidered practically everything I'd learned about building solid body guitar and realized what was causing some of the recurring problems. The other issue on those necks was that we glued on the fingerboard before carving the neck.   Double whammy. Both processes are ill-advised.   I should know...

1,200 is a hell of a learning curve

Rick's already answered, but let me add that in the days before internet and free sharing, we had to learn on our won. I'd like to see how many here would have learned as much(IE: figured it out on their own).

It's remarks like that that often make me want to never share another phargling word publicly, and/or freely. Too many idiots take what we give  freely and not only not appreciate it, but then turn it on us.

[QUOTE=Rick Turner] The other issue on those necks was that we glued on
the fingerboard before carving the neck.   Double
whammy. Both processes are ill-advised.[/QUOTE]



Rick, do you feel that the fingerboard should be glued after rough
shaping even if Epoxy is used? If so, why?  Stress relieved during
the carving?

Back bow........

I'm no expert. I have not built that many necks at just over a dozen. I've used epoxy on 2, Titebond. LMI, and fishglue on the others. No cases of back bow in my very limited experience. Many others use water based glues with success.

This has got thinking. Maybe the variable causing this is not moisture in the glue. If it was, wouldn't it be much more of a problem? Doesn't Taylor use Titebond for there nearly 100,000 guitars per year?

Has anyone ever had back bow with epoxy?

Doesn't moisture cause most of the swelling across the grain?
Won't the fingerboard and fretboard expand at roughly the same rate, and then when they dry out return to a non-bowed state?
Isn't the most likely cause of back bow due to something else? Something that is treating the neck and fingerboard differently.......
Could uneven clamping of the fingerboard/neck during bonding initiate that curve, thus taking a permanent set?
I don't know, I'm just asking.   
I have more questions than answers on this.
I tend to listen carefully to expert advice like Rick's and Mario's, nevertheless I have questions.

(Leaving now to find flame proof suite. )

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"An adventure is only an inconvenience rightly considered. An inconvenience is an adventure wrongly considered." G. K. Chesterton.

Rick, I haven't heard that before. Don't glue the FB on a neck that wasn't carved. It just so happens I decided to "experiment" on this one. I glued the FB and install frets and now will begin to carve the neck. What's lurking around the corner for me? Clinton

[QUOTE=Rick Turner] ...The other issue on those necks was that we glued on the fingerboard before carving the neck.   Double whammy. Both processes are ill-advised.   I should know...[/QUOTE]
I'm guessing thats because carving much of the neck away relieves a lot of stress in the wood, causing the entire thing to bow a bit.
Is it a better method then, to get the neck close to final measurements, then re-plane it to flat, and finish carving or something similar to that?

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“If God dwells inside us like some people say, I sure hope He likes enchiladas, because that's what He's getting”
-jack handy

Steve, please go ahead and do it just like Taylor. Let me know when you get those ten Fadals in.   Oh, you'll have modify one just to true up the fingerboard on finished necks...

Bob has Fadals to make jigs for other Fadals...

Thinking that what glue processes work in a factory that makes 200 guitars a day is the right way for you to do it...and then leaving out all the other things that make it work for them is really dumb.   Sorry, but if you aren't ready to consider each thing you to to make a guitar in the context of each and every process, material, tool at your disposal, then you're just not going to be able to look critically at your own work and solve problems.

And yes, guys, you'll get much more stable necks if you rough carve first.   And you'll never get away with fretting fingerboards off the neck unless you carve the neck pretty close to final shape before gluing that fingerboard on. And you all should know the reasons for all this, whether you want to accept them or not. It's all been laid out here and in other threads in the past. No need to repeat ad nauseum...

OK, Mario?

[QUOTE=grumpy] Rick's already answered, but let me add that in the days before internet and free sharing, we had to learn on our won. I'd like to see how many here would have learned as much(IE: figured it out on their own]. It's remarks like that that often make me want to never share another phargling word publicly, and/or freely. Too many idiots take what we give  freely and not only not appreciate it, but then turn it on us[/QUOTE]

Grumpy,

That remark was tongue-in-cheek and light hearted and I think Rick took it that way. I've already paid my respects on many occasions to the free-sharing spirit in luthiery generally and people like Rick's specific influence and help to my building, and in the small way twhere I can I put back and contribute to the melting pot so my concience is clear. Yours will I'm sure lead you to do what you think best.

I don't think I'm an idiot but I may be to you - so be it.

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Dave White
De Faoite Stringed Instruments
". . . the one thing a machine just can't do is give you character and personalities and sometimes that comes with flaws, but it always comes with humanity" Monty Don talking about hand weaving, "Mastercrafts", Weaving, BBC March 2010

Hey, we're all grumpy on this bus...:-)

Hmmm

One more question to answer, or not.   

Could it be that water based glue is clamped different - higher pressure - than epoxy - low clamping pressure, and that leads to back bow?

Glue isn't the only difference.
Just wondering.

Signed,
Steve, a glutton for verbal abuse.   

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"An adventure is only an inconvenience rightly considered. An inconvenience is an adventure wrongly considered." G. K. Chesterton.