Official Luthiers Forum!

I bought a set of Madagascar Rwd from a former OLF Vendor on Ebay that I fell head over heels for. Figured it might a good idea to stockpile some of this beautiful wood before it starts to become scarce. However, it arrived today (USPS) only to be cracked in several places... . I'm assuming this happened in shipping. From the way it was packed, it must have taken a good hit...then split.

Question is: You think I should try and return this item & seek a refund, if at all possible? Or, should I try repairing the cracks...all 3 of them (also if possible & how to fix)? The cracks are on both back plates. One crack runs the whole length of one board & the other plate has 2 cracks that run about 1/2 way up & down the board about an inch apart...

I'm trying to determine whether or not this is worth repairing, or dealing w/ the hassle of an insurance claim. I haven't posted here much of late. I put acoustic building on the backburner for the last couple of years & have been concentrating mainly on my electric builds...& also raising an adorable Grandaughter... . I'd love to get back into the acoustic aspect of guitar building & complete my 1st build that needs to be done...and then continue onward. Life got a little hectic & made things a bit difficult for me to give the acoustic building my full attention.

I forgot to add, that when you push the plates together; the cracks are barely, if at all detectable.



A Pic before it was shipped:

I would ask the vendor to replace it - you ordered a nice set without cracks and if it were me this would be what I would expect to receive.

If the vendor is an OLF sponsor I strongly suspect that you will have a positive experience with them.

Lets see:

1.) vendor ships perfect wood in perfect packaging, and you get it damaged. Claim time.

2.) vendor trips on the way to the shipping bench and accidently cracks your wood, maybe he didn't notice it? Vendor call time.

3.) Vendor knowingly ships bad wood...... nah, let's don't go there, why would a vendor lose a customer over wood that was already broken.

Was the packaging damaged in any way? I've gotten tonewood from vendors wrapped with a single cardboard cover. That isn't good packaging. UPS, USPS and most all the others require two inches of packing all around.

We are all sorry for the loss and hassle, hopefully you will have a good outcome. You might get a couple of ukes out of it, if you decide not to repair it? Good luck.

I scooted over and can see the extent of the damage in the second shot is a double break. I have fixed stuff like this by making a four piece three piece back. You join the two smaller pieces of the bookmatch, which forms the inner wedge of a D35 style back. Then you add marquetry of course and join the outer two larger pieces. Just trying to help, how about a pic?

I heard from the Vendor & he has given me a couple of options:
1. Return it for a full refund,
2. Or, I can keep it, and get a store credit for the purchase amount.

My first thought is to keep & try to repair it. It's such a nice set. It has a great tap tone! I'd hate to see it go to waste. If glued back up properly, will it be strong enough to withstand the stresses exerted on it while being built and then as a finished piece?

Rich

Hi,

(My first reply seemed to disapear into cyberspace.....)

I recognize the set and have bought from the vendor several times in the last year...always high quality and good to deal with.....if you repair the set, I hope you'll let us know how it turns out.

Laurie

Rosewood that cracked? Say it isn't so! Next thing I know, you'll be saying there's no Santa Claus...

Why bring it up here before you take it up with the vendor? That just gets bad vibes going. I hate this automatic "go on the Internet" with problems stuff. It's just bad form, and it comes off like whining.

GMAB...I ain't whining! I just want to know if it's fixable & be road worthy. I have dealt w/ the Vendor many times...always a pleasure too! Besides, he'll gladly take it back (see above post). You can come down off your high horse now...

I disappear for a few years, come back w/ a simple question, and get a ration...This is the place right?

I dont see any reason why it cant be repaired. I have had pieces split on me while working them and glued them back together and no trace or evidence of he crack was ever noticable. As far as strength, the glue is most likely stronger than the wood it's self. I dont think you will have any negative effects if you choose to repair it.

As far as Rick Turner's comments....well, that's Rick. I dont think others thought of your post as whining. It was a legitimate question of repairability. Welcome back! I hope you stick around and post some pictures of how you used this wood.

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Reguards,

Ken H

Rich that is a very common crack in nice QS Rosewood. It is an easy repair to make. I would use either cyano or hot hide glue. Fish glue should work well too. Set the back up in your clamps so that you only need to crank a little to close the cracks. Give it a dry run to see how well they cracks close then back of the clamps, apply your glue and re-clamp. Should be like new again. Oh one more thing. Place some waxpaper on the clamp bars. After sanding you should have a strong invisible repair.
Oops. I see Ken beat me too it.

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Beautiful and unusual tone woods at a reasonable price.
http://www.rctonewoods.com/RCT_Store
The Zootman
1109 Military Rd.
Kenmore, NY 14217
(716) 874-1498

It's a nice looking set and should glue back together easily. If you repair it and use it, I would suggest you offer to pay the vendor something for it and not take full store credit. Perhaps half price?

Dave F.

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Cambrian Guitars

"There goes Mister Tic-Tac out the back with some bric-brac from the knick-knack rack"

Like the others said, it should glue back together OK, I'd run a bead of HHG into the crack and clamp it up, taking note of the cautions that Bob gives. No it wasn't whining, ignore Rick's rudeness, most of us do.



Colin

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I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

Hi Rich - I wanted to chime in again here. Welcome back to the OLF and my apologies if you feel that any of us have been rude to you. I am sure that this was not the intent of anyone here.

However please understand that we do occasionally see posts turn up that are not from regular members that we know and they often center around a dispute over goods or services. In fact this has been such a problem that it is expressly forbidden in the OLF Code of Conduct.

Although I didn't see your post as one of these - I can see how someone else could....... It was not clear, since you did not take this up with the vendor before posting here, what this might evolve or perhaps devolve into.

So Rick perhaps saw your post as yet another post where someone wants to carry out a private war against a vendor. Personally that thought crossed my mind too. I am sure that no harm was intended.

As for if "most" of us ignore Rick's perceived rudeness that is an assumption that I take issue with. Personally I do not ignore Rick's posts, be they rude, perceived to be rude, or not, because he is one of the very most knowledgeable members here. And I also try to remember that he is taking the time to offer a comment and usually assistance as well. I think that I am learning to be less concerned with the delivery and more concerned with the quality of the offering. And this thinking has me listening to Rick now.

Back to your wood. Sure it can be fixed, most things in guitar building can. But you didn't order broken wood and I doubt if your house has a sign in front of it that says "UPS, USPS, FedEx - Please deliver all damaged good here - I can fix anything......." Hopefully you will understand what I am saying here and that it is with the best of intent toward you. If your vendor is willing to send you what you originally expected, wood that is not broken, why not let them make it right for you?

Exactly Hesh, if you ignore the rudeness and sometime lack of social skills he has a great deal of good things to say, his knowledge is enormous when it comes to his chosen field. I never said ignore his posts, that would be stupid as you would be passing over a great deal of valuable knowledge gained from long experience, I said ignore the rudeness, nothing more or less. I think most of do now just ignore the rudeness and concentrate on the meat of his posts.

Colin

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I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

I fixed a crack in some Mad Rose and it came out nicely.I just used some CA ,clamped it together for a bit and never looked back.By the way ,that is some nice looking Mad Rose.I`d love to know where you got it? It makes a great sounding and looking guitar.If you could let me know thru a PM that would be the cool way to handle it ,to keep it all clean and everything.
SKIN

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James W Bolan
Nashville Tennessee

I think that taking private matters public before exploring more discrete and effective methods of redress is rude. It's also less effective than dealing straightforwardly with the perceived source of a problem. With the rise of the Internet has come a new kind of "hide in the mob" mentality where people who legitimately or not claim a problem go public first to solve the issue and in so doing attempt to rabble rouse support before the other party has even been contacted. It's a form of bullying that I would hope we here would be above.

I see this on the more player oriented forums, too. A guitarist will complain bitterly about some problem with their guitar on-line. Have they contacted the luthier or guitar company that made the instrument? No. Ditto about technical questions re. instruments...too many players will choose to go on-line rather than call an 800 number or email the company.

If I put myself in the shoes of the supplier of that wood, I'd say that it was rude to go public with this issue before contacting me.

Other than all that, hey, wood cracks. Welcome to the real world. You're lucky you're not a sawmiller who has to take his complaints to Mother Nature. She doesn't give refunds...

My intent was not to flame or doubt the Vendor's credibility at all! If one was to read my first post. I never made one claim to portend that I was out to 'lynch him'. I can see how one might have construed it to be that way though. From the getgo, I never doubted how Brian from Beachtonewoods would deal w/ this. Like I said, I've dealt w/ him on previous transactions & he's always been fair & equitable. I can only recommend him & his wood! I know he used to be a Sponsor here. I don't see his name w/ all the others above, so I'm not sure if he still takes up residence here?

I do admit though, that I was more PO'd at the USPS, because I knew that this where the damage was done, as evidenced by the way it was packed. It was insured, so my first thoughts were that I'd have to chase the Postal Dept to seek retribution. Being such a hard brittle wood, and the way it was stacked, someone had to have tossed it or placed a heavy item on top of it, & the side plates acted like a knife-edge to split it.

Despite all this, my reason for posting about this...&, my only reason was to get some input here; if a fix & salvage was feasible, so these back plates don't have to be sent back! Thanks to all for those of you that shed some light on the repair process. Madrose is one of my favorite tonewoods & I don't want to see this sliced into Uke sets. I will try to fix them!

As far a R. Turner's comments. I have no doubt of this knowledege base & expertise w/ guitars et al, and what he brings to the table...It's just the banality of his approach! I really don't like having to defend myself on such a simple matter of gluing up some boards, especially since I had been in contact w/ Brian prior to posting. After all...aren't we supposed to 'all pool together'!

Just to be sure of where I've been coming from, I went back and carefully read your first post in this affair; and you'll not get any apologies for rude behavior from me. This is something I think was mishandled and that never should have come up here as a thread.

There was the implication that you held your vendor and/or responsible, and I read your post as a complaint against them both. Why else even mention the vendor, even in such veiled terms as "a former OLF Vendor on EBay"? You also wrote in a manner that leads one to believe that you had not contacted the vendor, and instead you came here asking OLF members if you should try to return the wood without having made the least effort to contact him. I don't think that the OLF should be the place anyone comes to first with such a problem. Shipping damage happens every day, and there are very well established procedures for dealing with shipping damage and goods delivered not in the condition implied in the sale agreement. Go to the supplier first, and then the carrier. This was a private business matter until you went public with it.

Perhaps a better approach might have been to simply ask how others deal with cracked wood without inferring blame elsewhere whether because of the method of packing or the carrier's carelessness. If what happened in your case happened to me, none on this forum would ever hear about it. I'd make one phone call and the wood would simply go back to the vendor with an explanation without blame or rancor. Any decent vendor would replace it without argument if you dealt with it immediately. "Hey, I just received the package, and the wood is cracked, and I'm returning it." "No problem. Do you want a refund or replacement?"

It's probably a simple shipping insurance claim, and if the vendor packed it carelessly, then it's on him. You would be due a refund on shipping costs, and yes, you'd have to deal with the pain in the butt of it all, but that's living in the real world.

Your other alternative is to ask for a partial refund or a credit toward a future purchase, and then glue the wood and move on. Of course, if you build a guitar with that wood and it cracks in the future, it's on you... I'd keep it and build ukes with it after getting the refund or credit.

ummmm.....Beachtonewoods is a very reputable eBayer and I was very pleased with both the packaging and the quality of the set of Black Acacia I got from him, and of course indicated as such on my revue of the transaction...

I'm not looking for any apology Ric! You can think whatever you want. But you are dead wrong in your assumption that I 'paniced & posted' before contacting the seller. You can look for fault all you want. Truth be told, there ain't none. Assumption can get one a bit of trouble! Had I had his Ph #, I would of contacted him first off, but I didn't. So we emailed instead. I placed no blame on him at all! I had no doubt that Brian would handle this first rate.

When I first posted about this, I merely laid the info out as to how this all went down. You just ran w/ it! Yes, it would of been more straight-foward just to ask, "How...or, is this repairable"? w/o all the other incidentals? Which in essence is what I was trying to do. So sue me. The only thing that was mishandled here was you RT...going off.

The matter has been dealt with. I kept the Madrose set & Brian is also sending me a set of Aus Blkwd. I did take one member's advise & did not take the full store credit that he was offering.

Gotcha!

Ok, let's knock off the bickering... ok.

It really isn't productive.

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

I didn't see any mishandling in the OP. Nothing that reflected badly on the vendor at all. USPS, maybe, but not the vendor.

Why do Rick's posts so often take threads in this direction?

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now known around here as Pat Foster
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http://www.patfosterguitars.com

On which option issue that would seem obvious #2 is you best financial option, That said I am not one for taking advantage of a vendor on something that is outside of the vendors control. Lot of things happen in shipment and rosewood will split down the grain now and then.

If you keep it it will repair just fine and in fact the glued joint will be stronger the the rest of the wood.

Imagine for a moment that you've made a guitar and sent it to a client. Unbeknown to you, the guitar is damaged in shipping, and then the client immediately jumps onto the Acoustic Guitar "Guitar Talk" forum and starts a thread about the issue. Was the damage your fault because of less than great packaging? Was it the carrier's fault? Who knows?... Your client has just chosen to just take this issue public and let a bunch of people who have nothing to do with the transaction get involved...before he or she spends even a day seeking answers, solutions, or redress from either you, the builder, or the shipper. Everybody loses in this. It's not the way for mature people to deal with problems, folks.

Rick Turner,

Thanks so much for sharing your opinion. If you are as knowledgable as some people say you are, why did you make the decision to try and bring the poor guy down when he was already in an unfortunate situation? It sure was clear to me that he was looking for help from people who I'd hope are here to offer assistance and learn from each other.

I don't agree with the way you have handled yourself a couple of times on this forum. I really wanted to say something several topics ago when you stated that people who are too lazy to do the proper research deserve to have their guitars fall apart on them. I can't think of any reason why I would wish that someone's work would fail, I would'nt even begin to wish that upon you even though I don't think much of you. Anyone who sets out to build a guitar is no slouch in my books. If we all knew everything there is to know what fun would the journey of making a guitar be?

"Guest" I don't know who you are and you didn't use your name in your post but I wanted to respectfully beg to differ with you here. Mind you - my wish is that if no one has anything constructive to say going forward confined to helping Rich with his original questions that we all refrain from further divergent comments. But I rarely get my wish so no biggie there.

I went to my doctor the other day and she said to me that it would not hurt me at all to stop smoking...... After I replied to her that it would not hurt her at all to lay off the Ben and Jerry's and lose 15 pounds I actually heard what she said and understood what the real message was.

This professional was saying to me that she would hope that I would do all I could to help myself first before seeking professional guidance.

I see this as very related to what Rick is saying here. And I agree that regardless of the delivery the contents of the package, Rick's message, is indeed valid - at least it is to me.

Many folks have been harmed by comments on the Internet that once made can live on in Google searches for far to long.

I also am convinced that Rich was just asking an honest question and had no intent to diss the vendor. But no one has any control over how a post may be personally perceived by each of us beyond our own ability to see the intent as positive or not.

Your comments and even bringing up past instances where you disagree with Rick's approach AND not identifying yourself is simply not fair. It does not contribute to the health of the forum, disregards the request of one of our hosts to lighten up, and is in my view inflammatory.

I wanted to add here that I may have the dubious distinction of having fought with Rick on this forum more than anyone else....... This is something that I am NOT proud of.

Recently I proactively approached Rick and asked him to lend a hand in helping another member who had left the forum over a disagreement. Rick went out of his way, behind the scenes, and did indeed help and that member is now back here. There is a heart there and I am the first to admit that I was very wrong in my initial judgment of Rick.

So please let's honor our hosts here and help the OLF have a year where we all grow in both guitar building and understanding each other.

Thanks.