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Jim Kirby asked me to post a few pictures of my assembly, from the top. I was curious too, and wanted to see how it would look. I was nervous, as I removed it, because some glue had seeped through the little gap between the sides and top, and at first I thought it wasn't going to release from the solera. I realized after everything was dry, that I had forgotten to seal the edge of the raised portion of the lower bout where I had had to chisel away the edge. I was afraid I had glued the sides to that too, but it popped loose, becase all of the glue was on the sealed surface.

You can see in these pictures how the top is level with the edge of the sides in the upper bout and at the neck, but is bent around the perimeter gradually to about a 5mm drop in the surface at the edges, in this type of construction.

Next, it goes back in the solera, I finish the supports on the sides at the top braces, make up the back braces, install them, and then install the reverse kerfed linings, finish bringing the back down to the correct thickness, put in a back strip, and install the back. I guess I should write something on the top before I close it up. What do you use to write in the top, a soft pencil?

Thanks again, for looking.

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Waddy

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I use a pencil to sign and date each top of my guitars...works for me! Looking good Waddy!

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Reguards,

Ken H

Looks as it should Waddy,
On my solera I kept the edge of the raised portion a few mm back from the line to avoid making the solera and guitar one....!!?...
A little waxed paper under the area of the neck block and end block also helps with this as well as avoiding working with too much glue.
I use a #2 pencil (not too sharp) to sign date and number under the top.
In Siguenza Jose' dedicated each of our guitars in the space between the outer fan brace and the rim.....I'm sure that guitar will be the only one I'll ever own with his signature inside!
Carry on!

Millimeters!?!?! That ain't how a... man... measures things is it?

OPP! Ducking and running REAL FAST!! I came about 3mm's from the people thinking really poorly of me!

It's going great Waddy! Is the main advantage in using a Solera instead of an OS Mold the adjustability (and the possibilty of gluing the guitar to it ) ? Are there other reasons or just tradition?

Usually, I take a cursory glance at classical building threads for technique ideas and craftsmanship, but this one is getting interesting. Big thanks for the updates.


Blood! It's a very bold statement!!

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Billy Dean Thomas
Covina, CA

"Multi famam, conscientiam, pauci verentur."
(Many fear their reputation, few their conscience)

Thanks for these pics Waddy.

I'm guessing from reading what you've provided that it is probably more straightforward to do the construction for the "falling-away" top the way you have done as opposed to the way it is done in Bogdanovich' book, where the sides have to be carefully tapered to fit the ramp.

Since I'm set up now to do it the way in the book, I may go ahead and do it that way once, and then trim my ramp back by the side thickness and do it the way you did on a second guitar, just to see. One possible reason to do it the book's way is that you can use solid or kerfed linings glued in flush to the flat top of the sides and then tapered along with the sides, if you don't like the "little teeth"

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Jim Kirby
kirby@udel.edu

Ahhhhh, Waddy, seems like you should be passing out cigars!

Glad to hear you 'birthed' it away from the solara with no damage, though I would have figured suction or forceps, not chisels.

Your attention to detail and high quality workmanship are working to create a really nice guitar.

Dennis

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Dennis Leahy
Duluth, MN, USA
7th Sense Multimedia

Thanks Ken!

Dave, hindsight is 20/20. I usually think of putting waxed paper when I'm gluing, but I didn't think the hide glue would run through as much as it did. I also forgot that I no longer had sealed edges on the raised lower bout. Before I had to trim the edge back it had 3 - 4 coats of shellac. I figured the glue wouldn't stick to that much. Live and learn. I know what you mean about the signature. This is probably as close as I'll come to a Romanillos. Maybe I'll write "First guitar by Waddy Thomson - Romanillos Design - Date" and sign it. Then, at least it will have his name in it.

Hey, Billy, if you build with Euro Spruce, you have to use mm. You can't measure it in inches, as it will not cooperate. How do you think I've been so lucky(except for the gluing part ). I think it is just the best way, when you are using a Spanish Heel, and that, is, I suppose, the traditional and proven method.

Jim, it was a choice for me. I had read Bogdanovich's book too, and I liked it, if for no other reason, the price and the pictures. It is a great resource, and I look at it often. However, from everything I had read of Romanillos, I had decided that I liked the logic of his methods, and his great affinity for understanding the heart of the process as it relates to Torres and his building, as well as his understanding of the history of the instrument. I wanted my build to be as much of the traditional, as I could stand. Also, it seemed easier, though, getting the sides to fit, exactly, takes a bit of effort. I know binding and purfling will take care of any gaps, but you don't want the purfling way out on the top. At least, I don't.

Thanks, Dennis. I was really lucky that the glue stayed on the sealed surfaces, and I only had to wiggle it a little, and it popped right off. The sound was a little disturbing , but I had not moved it enough for anything to break. The top has a very nice ring to it, all over. Don't know if that's good or bad at this juncture.

Thanks again for looking.

_________________
Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

"I'm guessing from reading what you've provided that it is probably more straightforward to do the construction for the "falling-away" top the way you have done as opposed to the way it is done in Bogdanovich' book, where the sides have to be carefully tapered to fit the ramp."

A few comments:
At the Romanillos course we all brought our sides cut straight at 110 mm. After bending, these were placed in a jig provided which was shaped to the proper taper and the sides trimmed (using a plane) to match. This I think was done for the sake of simplifying the pre-course prep work as well as allowing for imprecision of bending considering much of the group was inexperienced. I find it far easier to profile the curve of the sides using a template prior to bending. As I use a hot iron to bend, I can locate the waist precisely and maintain the correct contour. Note though that with either method the "top" edge of the sides are kept straight and the raised portion of the solera creates the "fall away" portion of the top. This method allows you to make slight corrections of the plantilla as you work the sides around the top before fastening everything together with the peonies (dentillones) as well as helps keep the sides at 90 degrees to the flat surface of the solera. Though using kerfed linings might seem less troublesome fitting these and tapering sides to fit the taper of the solera will splay the sides out of square if they dont coorespond exactly.
All in all I think the Romanillos method is a bit easier to do.

Thanks I didn't see that! There'd be no other easy way to work with that join.

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Billy Dean Thomas
Covina, CA

"Multi famam, conscientiam, pauci verentur."
(Many fear their reputation, few their conscience)

Dave, one of the reasons Bogdanovich can work it that way is that he uses an outside mold that fits exactly rather than the little blocks for outside support of the sides. This would keep the sides from splaying, I presume.

Also, where might one, too late now, but for future builds, get a tracing of that profile? It was a pain trying to measure from a plan that I wasn't sure was all that correct, because it does not show things in any kind of perspective that allows you to see all of the things that are happening, and it does not provide very good info on side tapering. I just used the inside measurement, and added a couple of millimeters for the top thickness. Not very scientific. I don't know if I'm properly tapered or not, or whether that matters as long as I'm even. My taper is fairly flat from the tail to the widest part of the lower bout, then it starts tapering a little more steeply, then at the waist it begins to come off even more. I tried to soften all of that into a gentle curve, but I don't know if I succeeded or not, as I have no reference point to compare it to.

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Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

Waddy, Having the complete mold to hold the sides can be good but it can also present problems, first off, if your sides are not precisely the same shape as the form they may (or may not) want to be coaxed into the right shape and you have little or no adjustability. The complete mold is not adjustable in and out as the brackets are and that can be useful in forming the sides around the precisely trimmed top. My present solera has a full solid profile mold but I plan to segment it into sections and create a little adjustability for the next guitar.
Your description of the side profile sounds just right.....you have to decide for yourself the overall depths you want according to your own sense of what will work best with the construction that you've chosen but in general the depth is constant from the end block forward to the widest part of the lower bout, tapers somewhat into the waist area and is a constant increased taper to the heel........

Here are working side depths I have based on the Romanillos profile:

End-102 mm
Lower bout-102mm
Waist-98mm
Upper bout-94mm
Heel-90mm

Of course these measurements do not reflect the final dimensions of the guitar as the actual dimensions will include the back thickness and taper of the fall away once trimmed.

Dave, thank you for the depths. I think mine gets a little shallower at the heel, but that is a similar taper to what I have. I agree on the side blocks. I, of course, bent on a pipe too, and while both sides are very close, and when I hold them up to each other, they look the same, but there are some minor variations. The blocks give access that you wouldn't have with a solid mold. I didn't plan to change. My original blocks had little 2mmX2mm saw cuts at the bottom corner because the original plan called for them to be used to hold down to edge of the top in the solera. I cut some of them off, because you need that contact at the bottom of the block to keep the sides in tight. I left some too, because I found that they were handy when gluing braces to hold the top to the raised upper bout at the edges so they didn't spring up when gluing in the fans. Now, half are notched and half not notched. Adapting as I progress.

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Waddy

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Hi Waddy. Great job. Your rosette looks very good from a bit of a distance. It looks good up close as well, but what I mean to say is that it works very well with the guitar as a whole and that is very important. Keep us updated as to how she comes along!

While we're on the subject of depth, it doesn't seem to make much different at all. I generally use a (finished) depth of 100mm for the tail and 89mm for the heel. It would take a drastic departure to really change things (like along the lines of Sanguino... if you ever get a chance or are in Barcelona go pour over the Sanguino in the Museu de la Musica's collection...)

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Instagram: @jfrenchluthier
Web: https://www.jfrenchguitars.com/

Joshua,
Nice to see you posting!................
When we saw Jose' Romanillos' Sanguino I didn't take the opportunity to measure it but I would have to estimate the depth at almost six inches.............an amazingly deep guitar.............

Thanks, Joshua! I think my GAL plan, and the Courtnall book have the Romanillos guitar at 84mm at the heel, and about 100 at the tail, and that's about where I am. This has been a great learning experience, and I am grateful to you, Dave and Shawn for all of the great tips and building method help. It has really made things go smoothly, except for almost marrying my guitar face to my solera, permanently. I'll be working this weekend to get the back ready, and prep the body in the Solera for gluing the back on.

Dave, Sounds like that guitar might require arm extensions or a very different holding method.

_________________
Waddy

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Sound Clips of most of my guitars

David - Jose's Sanguino is something else, isn't it? If I'd venture a guess, and it might be faulty memory here, I'd say both the Musica Sanguino and the Romanillos Sanguino have even a good 7 inches of depth!

Waddy - I've never used any sort of wax paper or sealant on my solera. What did you use to glue the dentellones? I use fish glue and it doesn't tend to run through any gaps or anything. If you ever get a hang up just carefully use a seam separation knife and you shouldn't have any problems. have you glued the back on yet?

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Instagram: @jfrenchluthier
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I was using HHG to glue the Dentellones. Probably should have used Fish Glue, but really like the HHG. It was probably too runny. The problem was that I had to trim back the raised portion of the solera, and forgot to seal it again. What felt like it was stuck, really just popped loose, because it was all on the shellac sealed surface. I was just afraid it had run down to the unsealed spruce on the raised Lower Bout. I was lucky there. I have not gotten to the back yet. My granddaughter, and my son, were visiting last night and this morning, so have not gotten back in the shop yet today. Prepping for that step is what is next. Finish thicknessing the back, back strip, back braces, linings, fit and glue. In that order, I hope. With luck, maybe I can get the parts prepped and glued by tonight, then I can fit and glue the back tomorrow. I have to see how things go.

_________________
Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars