Official Luthiers Forum!

I know there's alot of variables to consider, but generally speaking is there much difference between the sound between an Adirondack and a Carpathian top? Is Carpathian close to an Englemen? I'm familiar with an Engleman top. I didn't like it much with IRW.
I'm looking to build a Sapele SJ 13 fret to the body and didn't want to end up too mellow. I'm also familiar with Lutz, but thought that it might lack something. Clinton

They are all good IMHO but different too.

I have 2 OMs that were built identically - one has an Adi top and the other a Carp top. Like Todd mentioned the Carp is whiter and the uneven grain spacing is indeed very much like Adi.

My impression is that the Adi top is louder and projects better than the Carp top. But....... psychoacoustics may be rearing it's ugly head in as much as at least one other who has tried both guitars did not hear this difference. The Adi guitar is also a BRW guitar which kind of skews things........

Lutz is wonderful stuff and every guitar that I have built with it I have been very pleased with it. I would liken it to Sitka on steroids in as much as the over tones are better with Lutz but it retains the strong fundamentals that Sitka is known for.

If cost were not an issue my personal preference tone wise is Adi over Carp.

Carpathian is just ordinary Picea abies, European Spruce, from the Carpathian mountains, rather than Germany or Italy or Swizterland etc.

Colin

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I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

Actually from the 100's Red spruce tops I've seen they're consistently stiffer, and not in a subtle way, than any other species, even (and perhaps especially) the "ugly" ones filled with hard lines. Carpathian comes close, although I have seen much less of it so I cannot be judge. The Carp tops I have now are wide grain, really stiff and have a nice and full ring with low overtones. I have one Lutz top joined and ready to be braced, a beautiful and beautiful sounding top courtesy of Shane, but nowhere as stiff as Red or the Carp I know. Red spruce is expensive because it's hard to come by in guitar size (the trees are generally small). The recent hype does nothing good for the prices, of course.
Does Red spruce make a better guitar? Not necessarily, and it depends in what hands…

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Laurent Brondel
West Paris, Maine - USA
http://www.laurentbrondel.com/

I have just finished my first guitar with Carpathian spruce after building a couple with Red spruce. Obviously, we are speaking in big generalities, but I was interested in people saying that Carpathian responded better to a softer touch than Adirondack and based on this guitar I would agree. The wood didn't tactilly feel as tough, but it was roughly as stiff and a little lighter (once again, big generality). If you are using a dremel to rout the rosette go very slowly, it jumped more than usual for me at each grain line.

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Burton
http://www.legeytinstruments.com
Brookline, MA.

Carpathian spruce is great wood ! It looks a lot like Adirondack but it is usually much less dense. I just finished a Carpathian/ Mahogany OMish guitar that turned out great.

Usually the only thing "lacking" with any species of spruce is the builder's knowledge of how to work with it to bring out its best. Whether a guitar turns out "mellow" or otherwise depends much more on how you build the guitar than what woods you use.

Mark

Hummmm???? All the Carpathian I have used has had very good and consistent grain. Maybe not over tight but not wide by any means and lots of silking. Granted I have only used 3 sets and would rate them all as high grade.

This is purely subjective of course but to me the Carp I have used has a more shimmering response than Adi. Adi is very focused and punchy where Carp is is bright and like I said shimmering.

If your truly looking for a top that gives a mellow tone as in a bit deeper in throat, a bit more bass oriented then I would say look more at a Cedar or Redwood top. If you really want to stay with a spruce and want a mellow tone than Sitka gets you closer to what I would call a mellow tone than Adi, Carp or Lutz in my opinion.

OOPs I miss read You don't want mellow Ok If you want very focused that Adi If you want bright but with a shimmer rather than a punch, then Carp. I really like Carp for an instrument that is going to be used as rhythm or strummed instrument Lutz or Adi for a finger style or lead instrument.

I have to disagree with Mark, I don't see much resemblance at all between Adi and Carp Adi is often called Red Spruce for its pinkish hue and grain lines Carp is really white.

Carpathian is Euro with added marketing!

Colin

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I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

Yep it is. Like you said it is Picea abies grown in the Carpathian mountains

Don't hurt your self Colin

That might be true, but the growing conditions... length of winter, temperature, rain, length of summer etc will all contribute to the final product. So I see no reason to say that all regions grow the same quality of euro spruce. (Not implying one is "better" just that there are consistent differences)

I think you need to evaluate each set individually, but I do see differences in Italian and Capathian tops.... you don't?

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

Good point Brock...and an issues we discussed just last weekend in the Zoot Cave.

To our European brethern...can you describe the appearance and tonal differences, if any, among European Spruce called Carpathian, German and Italian. If none, and they are all officially known as P. albies then would it be reasonable to call it all Euro Spruce?

We harvest Red Spruce from areas much farther and wider in North America than the 3 Euro Spruce regions, yet it's all called Red Spruce. What am I missing...or is this the source of the head-banging, Colin?

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

I agree with Brock, all EU spruce may be the same genus but whatever is different, soil, climate and such for Carp and Alpine it sure feels, looks and sounds different. Generally…

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Laurent Brondel
West Paris, Maine - USA
http://www.laurentbrondel.com/

Maybe tonewood suppliers need to give the GPRS coordinates of the tree (Shane probably could). Then you wouldn't need to give the trees passports. Given the huge variety of growing conditions in Italy you are going to see differences between "Italian" sets - unless you only use one supplier that harvests from the same spot. Also given that spruce grows on the borders of Italy and Switzerland, if you find the right spot then a set of "Italian" and "Swiss" will come from a few metres apart.

I agree with Mark Blanchard - pick the wood with your fingers ears and eyes (not by name) and then shape it to the sound you want.

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Dave White
De Faoite Stringed Instruments
". . . the one thing a machine just can't do is give you character and personalities and sometimes that comes with flaws, but it always comes with humanity" Monty Don talking about hand weaving, "Mastercrafts", Weaving, BBC March 2010

JJ,

It would be interesting to trace back the history of where the "country" naming of Picea Abies came from - was it in Europe or in North America or a hybrid of both?

Carpathian for example I think came from a supplier in Europe and was marketed under that name in the US. The Carpathian mountains cover borders of Romania, the Czech Republic, Slovakia, Poland, Ukraine, Austria, Serbia, and northern Hungary so if another supplier in the future harvests P. Abies in a very different part of the Carpathian mountains with a very different look from "Carpathian as we know it Jim" will that still be Carpathian Spruce?

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Dave White
De Faoite Stringed Instruments
". . . the one thing a machine just can't do is give you character and personalities and sometimes that comes with flaws, but it always comes with humanity" Monty Don talking about hand weaving, "Mastercrafts", Weaving, BBC March 2010

Carpathian, German, Swiss, Austrian, Italian, all have variations in them according to their own specific growing conditions. Were they on the North side or South side of the mountain, did they come from a protected valley like Fiemme, or up on the exposed slopes? All of the regional European Spruce populations can exhibit a whole range of characteristics that is spread over a wide continuum. The 'Carpathian Spruce' I have direct from Roumania if mixed up with my German, Swiss and Italian tops fits right into the same continuum, is indistinguishable, and are totally interchangeable. Even in the same country there would also be clonal variation from place to place which would alter the characteristics of the wood within the continuum. Treat each piece as an individual.

They had the right idea in the 19th century and before, it was all just 'pine'.

Colin

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I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

My stash of Euro all came from Buffalo...........

[quote="MichaelP"
I have to disagree with Mark, I don't see much resemblance at all between Adi and Carp Adi is often called Red Spruce for its pinkish hue and grain lines Carp is really white.[/quote]

I'd say it's the other way around. Red spruce is often called Adirondack (by guitar makers). If you look up Picea Rubens on Google you won't see the word 'Adirondack' used, even in government documents, anywhere but in 'growing ranges'; not in 'common names'. 'Adi' is as much a marketing name as moon spruce, except that they don't grow any spruce on the moon...yet!

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Bob Garrish
Former Canonized Purveyor of Fine CNC Luthier Services

I'd say it's the other way around. Red spruce is often called Adirondack (by guitar makers). If you look up Picea Rubens on Google you won't see the word 'Adirondack' used, even in government documents, anywhere but in 'growing ranges'; not in 'common names'. 'Adi' is as much a marketing name as moon spruce, except that they don't grow any spruce on the moon...yet![/quote]

Ah the old chicken and egg syndrome But none the less Red Spruce or Adi is pinkish in color as where European or Carpathian is creamy white

Didn't know that...I like Euro.

So then...how would we really know if a European vendor was selling us German Spruce that really came from the Carpathian mountains? I assume that there is no way to tell...other than sophisticated DNA analysis. Or...is there any documentation that establishes a chain of custody?

Getting back to my original point then...why not call it all Euro Spruce for the same reason that we call it all Red Spruce. Of course, the advice to treat each top as an individual no matter what it is called really is the best policy. And I can well imagine that builders have called their Carp Spruce-built guitars German or Italian since it would definitely command a higher price. Were it all called Euro then such shenanigans could be avoided.

Thanks Colin...Now I get it...

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

"Adirondak" is an interesting term too. Didn't (doesn't) red, white, blue and black spruce all grow in this region and unless you are a well trained botanist you'd be struggling to seperate them. I thought I read somewhere that Martin in it's early days sourced their wood mainly from the Adirondak mountains and the legendary pre-war Martins with "Adi" tops could have been a variety of these species.

Does Red spruce grow in separate stands in the US or is it intermingled with white, blue and black spruce, and is all "Red spruce" sold as guitar sets really red spruce? I ask as I don't know but would be interested to find out.

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Dave White
De Faoite Stringed Instruments
". . . the one thing a machine just can't do is give you character and personalities and sometimes that comes with flaws, but it always comes with humanity" Monty Don talking about hand weaving, "Mastercrafts", Weaving, BBC March 2010

Calling spruce Adirondack is kind of the same as calling it Carpathian. You are refering to a harvesting area that generally translates to common characteristics. There was a recent thread where it was said the Golden Era Adi could have been a mix of Red, White and Black spruce. I appreciate that Carpathian is marketed as it is and I don't think anyone is claiming it to be anything other than Picea Abies. I just recently bought some and the vendor told me that some of it was very tight grained and looked more like what was characteristic of wood sold as German spruce. And when I got it it looked indistinguishable from wood I know was from Switzerland. No big deal. To me, the "Carpathian" distinction refers to wider grained and very stiff wood, similiar to the newer growth "Adi" we get here, especially with the harder grain lines. I know it is Picea Abies, but I appreciate the dinstinction.

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Burton
http://www.legeytinstruments.com
Brookline, MA.

With all this confusion I wonder whether we'll ever go back to the old days when Spruce was just called Spruce....

Given the fact that environmental conditions can and do impart environmentally specific attributes within a given species, and the fact we like to take advantage of these environment specific attributes. To me it seems both logical and prudent that sub-names and or nick names are applied.

Now insuring you get those attributes, well that is a different issue all together