Official Luthiers Forum!

Hey guys,

i really need some help on this one.
as some of you know tonewood supplies has just moved into a new shop.
we are also in the process of redoing the website to make it look much more proffesional and interesting.

for the new site i will be listing pictures of induvildual components on a regular basis and i want the photo,s to be as good as possable.
I have allways had trouble taking photo,s in the past and i think this is due to poor equiptment rather than technique.
I also Think it really makes a difference if the photo,s on a site are good or not an will really make the site better if i can get this right.
but as i am sure you all know raw wood is very very hard to photo especialy if has figure of any kind.

i dont like wiping the wood down if poss becouse no matter how fast the solvent dries you introduce moisture into the wood.

so i need to hear from anyone with experience how you photo wood.

i know that white light is important and i have invested in some small lights for product photography but what is the best back drop to use (black?) do i need an umbrella shade, and most importantly what do i need from a digital camara to do this type of photography (my current one is just a standard cannon ixus and i need to upgrade).

i am real novice when it come to photogrophy so any will help will really be appreciated.

i have talked to many people about this and most people say that light is 100% the most important thing but i know you can have to much light also.

if possable i would love bob c to chime in this one as his site has been a great inspiration to me and our new site has been inspired buy his wonderfull site and pictures (not a direct replica i hasten to add).

Bob i noticed you have some kind photo board for taking pics of back and sides is this just some mdf or ply glued to shape and painted black or there more to it than that.

any help will be great and it means that my customers can get a better idea of the wood i have available in the future.

My budget is pretty small at present becouse so much money has gone into this new shop company revamp so please bear this mind with your recomendations.

Thanks guys i respect and appreciate your views on such matters,
(sorry its not 100% guitar related)

Joel.

Hi Joel...

Two thoughts.

First one is the lighting.

I have studied photography in college some years back, and I found that the ideal light for my projects was outdoor light.

If you want to go cheap, take some dense black card (or cloth) outside, lay it against a wall, place tonewood and snap away.

A sunny morning or a bright overcast day is ideal for ambient light. If you can find someone's conservatory, even better.

Spend some time moving the tonewood around to maximise the grain.

Make sure your shadow doesn't fall on the "scene".....this is really the cheapest way to do it, I had to do a successful "no budget" photoshoot for the college I work at last year!!

If that doesn't suit, I recommend you find the nearest college and ask if there are any photography students who are willing to take on this project...to benefit their portfolio and yours.

BTW, all the best with the move, and your business.

Joel,

I don't have much experience shooting wood or guitars, but there was a thread last week about
photographing finished guitars. I found this url very interesting- lots of good information

http://www.liutaiomottola.com/BunnyBass/intro.htm

_________________
Gene

Politicians and diapers must be changed often, and for the same reason- Mark Twain

I get my best results photographing guitars by just using the lighting in my shop (high quality florescent) and a camera on a tripod with as long of an exposure as needed. Set the white balance to help get the color right and avoid using a flash.

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http://www.chassonguitars.com

Joel,
First off, Props to Bob C. He has one of the best looking websites around, and it has always seemed to outshine all others IMO.

Over the years I have tried a lot of different ways to take accurate pictures. When I first started, I wet the wood. I saw there where people on certain forums who mentioned this was deceptive, and that a person who knew what they were looking at could see the figure in dry wood(and that it gave them a better more natural view). I tried that for a while, and then started getting requests for wet pictures because most people couldn't tell what the wood would look like(and this is what they wanted to see). Bottom line, you will be able to present the figure and color more accurately when it is wet because it is closer to a finished instrument and that helps people pic and choose. Wetting wood for pictures is a pain in the rear, and if I had my choice I would avoid it. I often times will show half a set wet the other dry to make everyone happy, but if the wood has a unique bookmatch, your better off showing it wet so people can see it well. It is easy enough to take a dry pic before you wet the wood, but you will start to catalog a lot of pictures. This is no problem as far as loading them to a site, but how they are displayed becomes a real challenge for the person who is trying to browse. This becomes the next challenge, how to display accurate pictures(bigger is better) and still be able to keep the site bandwidth friendly(smaller images). Reduced size pictures that link to larger images are a good solution, but you can't reduce the size too much or again they will have a heck of a time browsing without enlarging every picture. It becomes a real balancing act. Then you have information you want to present; dimensions, species, a bit about the species, anything especially notable, a catalog # or something to identify the set, price and anything else you think is useful to a buyer. Too much text is cumbersome, too little is equally cumbersome if the buyer has to ask or try to find it elsewhere on the page or site. The hardest part about presentation of all of this is you are dealing with two audiences, one the experienced builder who needs basic info and price, and the newer builder that needs more information, because they may have never worked with this wood before.

I have tried doing things that provide more information in the photo. Such as placing rulers, placing sign with information(species, catalog #, dimensions), tracing the pattern of a common sized body. All of which can be handy and relieve some of the text on your site, but the more you have to clearly display those elements, the less you are able to focus on accurately displaying the wood itself(photo angle, frame size, etc). Tracing the pattern and wetting only that area looks nice, but the downside is some people like to see what a piece may look like if the match was reversed.

Photgraphing outside is nice, but I have found it is also less predictable. I think using the same setup in a fixed location has advantages for the viewer. You can figure out what lighting and setting make for the best representation of color(close as possible to what you see in person), and try to keep that consistency. I have used black, white, blue, green backdrops. Black and white are good for making the wood pop, but I find it can make wood look brighter or darker than in person. A kindof less natural high contrast, darker woods against black fade, lighter woods against dark pop(and just the opposite with white backgrounds). I prefer to use a shade of green that seems kind neutral, but also provides a reference from picture to picture(something white or black don't offer). If you like to photoshop the pictures, white or black is probably going to make that easier.

There is a LOT of things to think about, not the least of which is also how cumbersome it is to place the info on your site. When you have done this and gone through all the issues and challenges assosciated with the process. You can really appreciate a site like Bob's, because a site that well put together is no accident. Your balance of information and pictures may wind up being a little different than his, but that balance depends on what suits you and your clients best.

Good luck!
Rich

I believe that one of the reasons the Zootman's pics are so appealing is that he does in fact wet the wood and often has an outline drawn out. He also takes the time to surface sand his sets once they come off the saw. In addition, he makes it easy for folks to purchase by prominently displaying the serial # on the wood...it avoids confusion.

As far as lighting, one can purchase daylight balanced bulbs or tubes and IMO, that will provide consistent and repeatable results and portray the wood's color as accurately as possible. Placing the camera on a tripod and either using the timer or cable release to trip the shutter will insure a wiggle-free exposure and get you sharper images. Were it I, I would use a neutral gray background and use the value of a neutral gray card to determine exposure.

_________________
JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

I do what Kent does. I know my shop lighting is consistent unless I have the big garage door open on a bright day.

In the days of film, I think the color of the light source was more important than now, unless we're shooting for magazine advertising. Nowadays, it's pretty easy to compensate by setting the white balance, where you point the camera at something white and set the control that says, "this is white". Auto white balance often doesn't work; cameras don't -know- what white is.

One thing to bear in mind is that cameras shooting in Auto Exposure mode adjust exposure to make it average out to a middle grey (on an 18% grey card, like Sam mentioned). If a large part of the scene is dark the camera will open up exposure to try and make the scene average out to middle grey. Vice a versa if the scene is bright. So, if you can set your exposure using that grey card, you'll get more accurate and consistent results, but I don't do that.

Here's a sample of what I took in my shop a few months ago. The wood is dry, but ready for finish, so the contrast and color in the wood are a bit higher than if it had just come out of a thickness sander. No extra lighting, just set it on my bench and took the photo. Not great, but I think it's presentable for the ease and simplicity in equipment (camera and tripod) and setup (put it up there and shoot). I take hundreds of photos during some builds, so quick and easy count for a lot in my book. For this method, the only important equipment is a camera with manual white balance adjustment and a tripod.

Good luck!

_________________
formerly known around here as burbank
_________________

http://www.patfosterguitars.com

Taking pictures in sunlight is the best. I have tried everything I know how to photograph wood with a flash, offset lighting, etc. and nothing turns out the way the wood actually looks. Sunlight will do the trick. It's cheap and doesn't leave a glare if you don't wet the wood.

I know this is shameless self promotion, but I have a back and sides set on ebay right now and all the photographs were taken outdoors with a piece of cork board painted black as a background. I use corkboard because on occasion, I need to put push pins in to level out or attache whatever I am photographing.

Ken

The biggest thing here is going to come down to what exactly you're looking to do and how far you're willing to go. To be honest, when I visit a tonewood site, I'm generally not expecting studio quality photos nor am I expecting glamor shots of the wood. I'm basically looking for an accurate reflection of what it looks like. This can be achieved with relative ease and definitely without the use of expensive studio equipment.

My suggestion would be get yourself a good digital camera, a tripod, photo editing software (Photoshop is nice) and a well lit space. Frankly, unless you're a trained photographer I wouldn't recommend the use of flashes or any other light sources apart from the ambient light available because I feel that they tend to just overly complicate things. The tripod will allow you to take sharp pictures at any shutter speed so you can get correct exposure without having to worry about adding light or camera shake. Although daylight rated lights are great, you can achieve a correct white balance through software like Photoshop regardless of the lighting color so it's not a huge issue either way.. As for the color of the background, I would personally use white simply because it makes it easier to white balance the image in an editing software and it also isolates the wood itself, but that's just personal preference on my part.

If you're a novice photographer, my suggestion is simply get away with as much as you can in the shooting process because Photoshop is extremely forgiving... It's also much quicker and easier in most cases to just fix a problem in Photoshop than it is to take a perfect picture the first time around...

On the wet wood vs. dry wood thing, there's not much I can say about that. There are merits to both arguments so just do what you feel is best, I suppose.

Just my 2 cents.

Rich & JJ thanks for the compliments/
I take an awful lot of photos. Some good some not so good. It is a constant struggle with figured woods to get the
figure to show well. After all that's what sells the wood. There are many times that I may have a set of high figured wood but just can't get it to show in the photograph. Sometimes changing the camera angle or lighting angle works. Taking outdoor picks is not an option for me. Way too much time expended taking wood in and out of the shop. Then there is winter to contend with. I do wet most of the wood but not with water. Either naptha or oderless mineral spirits which is more that twice the cost of gas. I don't wet spruce or cedar. It doesn't seem to help except maybe for bearclaw. Backdrop doesn't seem to matter much as very little shows after croping. I do use flash and a couple of aluminum reflectors with incandescent bulbs along with the shop florescent lighting. Color is pretty darn true but I don't know why. I don't have time to fool with every pic in Photoshop. I use a Cannon A-260? set for portrait.
Of course none of the above is valid if your photographing your work.

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Beautiful and unusual tone woods at a reasonable price.
http://www.rctonewoods.com/RCT_Store
The Zootman
1109 Military Rd.
Kenmore, NY 14217
(716) 874-1498

Thanks guys,

some very valid points for me to think about there thanks.

as for outside photo,s i have found i do get the best results from shots taken outside but like bob its a bit of a problem for me.
becouse i am so busy taking shots outside will be too time consuming.
i want to set up a small photo area upstairs in my shop where the resawn stock is kept and close to the office area and computer.
that way it can come off shelves get numbered, outlined and shot and go streight back onto the stock shelves without to much fuss.
i aslo have the unpredictable british weather to think about,we are well known for our rain not our tropical sunny weather
if i have a very special set i will try to take an outside pic but i think as i will be updating stock photo,s weekly i need to set up an indoor studio for stock shots.

as for wetting the wood i suppose i will have to get used to doing it with some species but i would still prefer to avoid it if poss.
at the moment i use mineral spirits which work ok for me.
you can only get naptha in the uk in lighter fuel tubs which cost the earth (excuse the pun).
i will allways mark wet sets in the info box so i dont feel as though i am deciving people.

your comments about information are valid and while i think outlined backs are essential for people to visualise the finished result i sometimes miss out other info in my pics.
all pics from now on will have stock number and a ruler of some kind if possable.

also i am devided on the matter of serfice sanding.

with some woods like indian rosewood its essential but i find in some wood it will hide the figure.
for example every set of curly english sycamore i have sanded it has hidden the figure allmost completly.
with this type of wood i like to run one side through the planer very very lightly to get a true picture of the finished wood.
also i use special 2-6 tpi variable pitch bi-metal hankinson bandsaw blades these days that leave the finest finish i have ever seen on hardwoods.
it is like a planed serfice with sets cut with these blades they look there best streight off the saw so i will be leaving these un sanded until i find a better method that works for me.
also it will save me alot time.
i will sand any sets that go out on request though if people prefer sanded sets.

like micheal jin said people don't expect studio shots but they need to see as much as they can form the picture and with that in mind i need to get my photo,s as good as possable within my abbility's and means.

o.k. so the plan is get a better camara first.
not one thats to expensive but one that will do the job.
get some good natural light studio lights,
and get a tri-pod.
i then need to set up an area that can be used on a regular basis in the new shop and practice until i get the results i need.

I really apreciate all your comments on this i feel much more confident that i achive the results you all expect from your suppliers.

Joel.

Hi Joel
I would get a piece of plywood at least a meter by 2 meters and paint it flat white, black or maybe dark grey and lean it against a wall. Maybe put a small ledge on it 20 or 30 cms from the bottom to rest the wood on. You could put rulers on the front of the ledge if you wanted to show the measurments. I would use one light up and far enough to the side so as to get rid of any glare. Its only 2 dimensions so more than one light really isnt needed although an umbrella would soften the shadows on the background. As far as the camera is concerned I think something like a Canon A720 would be plenty good enough. Its not too small physically and should have more than enough resolution for your needs. Plus your probably familiar with the Canon software. Back up and zoom in a bit rather than take the photos at the widest setting to avoid the slight fisheye effect. Make sure to turn the camera flash off. Maybe try some shots when you get your camera and tripod and see if the room lights are all you need as Michael suggested. Set your cameras white balance to tungsten or fluorescent depending on what you have. I have found the auto setting doesnt work too well but then again my camera is quite old.
I have seen some tonewood suppliers wet a small area of the wood to show the figure better and I dont mind that. The thing that bothers me the most is glare. Im always moving my head around trying to see it better and of course that doesnt work. (suitable emoticon).
Wow. This took me 15 minutes to write. Hope its helpful.
Warren.

If you're serious about investing in a camera, I would suggest the Canon Rebel XTI. It's a consumer end SLR camera, but very user friendly and a pretty good value for the price. If you do get an Canon SLR, then I would really suggest investing in their 85mm f1.8 lens. It's a great lens and much more affordable than their "L" series lenses. A fixed focal length lens helps you take consistent photos from the same distance and they offer more clarity and a wider aperture than zoom lenses. If you don't want to go for an SLR, one of my favorite smaller cameras is the Canon Powershot G7 (I think they're up to the G9 now?). At any rate, it's a pretty nice camera that has many of the functions of a normal SLR.

Other companies to look out for are of course, Nikon, Sony (Zeiss lenses rock), and Panasonic (Their lenses are made by Leica which is my personal favorite company.)

warren,
the idea about the plywood is a good and is what what i had in mind.
it wont take long to knock up and will help a great deal in taking the pics.

as for a camara i think it will be worth my while to invest in an slr camara after all if i dont spend the money now i will end up spending more in the long run as with anything of this kind.
also i think the success of my company depends on getting quality pictures onto the website so its a worthwhile investment.
one thing i have noticed so far is that if you keep the content of your site current you get much more hits and people come back.
This includes updating photo,s.

i will take all your thought into considerating Thanks,

Joel.

After struggling for three years I realized that the mushy image I was working with was due to the camera. My Canon A75 just did not deliver the information I wanted to see; especially the depth of field was very shallow. A trip to one of Balto's very few Pro camera stores netted a Canon s3is, slightly used, for less than the A75 was new. Twice the pixels, a much nicer piece of glass, and, on auto, color that requires very little tweaking. Oh, yes, I'm embarassed to admit how much time I used to spend in Adode Elements. Elements, you say, why not the real thing? Price is why not. I recently went to Paint Shop Pro, got a lot more power and flexibility and utility for a lot less jack.

So, The A75 and Elements were fine for family and fun, but the s3 and PSP are much better for product photography. I believe.

I sit the parts on a rack in front of black-painted plywood, and I light with a pair of 250w daylight photofloods. The bulbs are in "brooder" reflector fixtures (H Depot). One light is at about 45 degrees to the left, and the other is at about 20 degrees, in other words, strong light flooding in from one side. I do this to try to show the contours of the part I'm shooting, as well as the figure in the wood. I need the parts to look as good as possible, and, for the pro, to impart as much information about the figure as possible. By the way, each light is behind it's own 2 ft by 3 ft, pvc-pipe-framed, frosted vinyl shower curtain diffuser, cost about $4.00 each.

After I mold my parts I have to scrape and sand them, and yes, by golly, sanding steals a lot of clarity from the raw curly maple. If my picture uploads ok you'll be able to compare the sanded part to the raw veneer. I'd give a lot to have the finished parts photograph like that, but the only thing I can think to do is to apply alcohol or naptha. The naptha makes me nauseous, and the alky shortens the workday....hey, wait a minute....

I have worked my way through daylight to a pair of speedlights,and finally settled on the photofloods for uniformity and repeatability. I shoot from about three feet away and crop in the computer; the a75 in zoom really degraded the image, so I got away from zoom. Could be the new box would do better, but my shop is tight, and backing up would be a big deal.

Hope something here helps.

Dan

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Dan
http://www.acme-archtops.com

Oh, yeah! The promised picture! Here goes, first time.....

_________________
Dan
http://www.acme-archtops.com

Hmmm...color needs a little....color!

Dan

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Dan
http://www.acme-archtops.com

Wow, great thread - I got some ideas to think about, especially different light angles (I usually go even on both sides).

So, here's some of the cheap end tips. First off, I have a Digital Rebel, but recently picked up a Canon SX100 specifically for when I go to DisneyWorld later this year. I really like the huge optical zoom in a "point and shoot" camera. Low and behold, not as much manual control (or, I haven't figured it out yet), but same picture quality, especially with the AV setting. Now, where's that Digital Rebel. . .

Side note, I love the look of subject photos that have the background blurred, so, I stick around AV most of the time.

For my backdrop, I used matte material (from WalMart), and hang it on a PVC (schedule 40) frame that I made with sprinkler supplies (elbows, t's, etc). I didn't glue them together simply so I can take it apart and stick it in my closet.

Lighting comes from artificial sunlamps, but, my friend uses halogen desk lamps, which are even better. I've been trying to figure out the best way to diffuse the light, from draping cloth, reflecting off my sunshade (for the car), but I'm going to buy some shower curtains now. Therein is the key for me, Diffused light.

One more thing - I've learned to move the subject away from the backdrop. Makes the background easier to blur, and the subject matter really pops out. Much easier to do when you step back and Zoom in as well (hence, the 10X on the SX100 actually has a better Zoom than the 18-55 that came with the Rebel).

Thanks guys you have given me loads to think about.

i am planning on keeping it quite simple as i have allways that simple works best for me

i am sure it will take a while but i am sure i will get there pretty soon,

Joel.