Official Luthiers Forum!

Informative and thought-provoking thread. I still have not read the AGF thread and most likely won't bother to as there has been resolution. Also, without actually having seen the guitar in question prior to shipment, there is still some amount of speculation as to its actual condition leaving the shop. I applaud the purchaser for following what I consider good form in dealing with this sort of an issue in a public forum and I applaud the builder for handling the resolution in the manner that he/she did.

Brock has brought up some incredibly important points in QC for custom guitars. It is not only the reputation of the builder in question, but the reputation of the industry that comes into question when something like this slips through. One can find a statistical excuse for a 'doggy' guitar to get past Taylor or Martin once in a while, but we need to be our own harshest critics when releasing a custom guitar upon the world. I don't really think that there is a valid excuse to let a bad one out by anyone making under a hundred or so guitars a year. Five minutes of final QC would identify the issues mentioned above.

Sort of an open question to those that are building for sale here on the OLF -- Does anyone slip a little piece of paper into the case with a QC date and name prior to shipment? Seems to me like a reasonable last step prior to buttoning up the case!

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Jim Howell
Charlotte, NC

I am trying to recall the name of the movie where our hero reaches the soviet border and is waited on at a window in a small building by a border official. He asks her for something and she says that he has to go to the next window. He moves to the next window and the same woman who helped him prior appears in the window and asks if she can help him with no indication that she ever spoken to him before.......

Somehow a tag that says "inspected by Hesh" with a guitar that I built would remind me of this movie.......

But it's a great idea Jim my friend......

I thought this is why we all had middle names!

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Jim Howell
Charlotte, NC

It can't be looked at all in one direction either though. The Internet allows somebody to sell to people all over the world, literally! The interesting side is it allows info to be spread, both good and bad depending on the POV!

It's kind of like the celebrity that seeks fame and fortune then gets a big part in a movie, TV show... then claims to be disturbed by people coming up to them! That is fame!

The internet makes us all celebrities in a small way! If you stink you stink! If your good your good it just raises the bar!

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Billy Dean Thomas
Covina, CA

"Multi famam, conscientiam, pauci verentur."
(Many fear their reputation, few their conscience)

Hello, One and All--I have followed this thread and the other on the AcousticGuitarForum with great attention. I am not a builder; I am a guy who buys the guitars you all make. I have bought guitars from many of you over the past years and probably will buy more in the future. Right now I have guitars on order from Mark Swanson, Lance, and Steve Saville. From my perspective that particular instrument should never have been sent out to a customer. Whenever something you create leaves your hands and goes out into the world--whether that thing is a guitar, a poem, a lesson plan, a memo to a colleague, a work or art--it says something about you as a person. If you put out work that is not your best effort, that reflects carelessness or faults, that is saying a lot. I wouldn't buy a guitar from that builder, ever. I hope I never receive an instrument which exhibits such problems. I hope nobody on this forum who is really into guitar making as a serious business endeavor would send out such a guitar. It's really not about "Well, I only charged X amount of dollars for this guitar, so you might have a minor flaw or two" or "I'm just getting started into lutherie, so my prices are a bit low and I haven't quite perfected my craft." In the end, it's about your sense of pride and personal responsibility. You know, I quit building guitars when I realized that I just did not have enough skill or craftsmanship to make a finished product that I would be proud to send out to people; it was painful for me to realize this, but it was the truth. So now I buy them and play them. They are things of great beauty which bring me endless joy. So please be careful of what you send out as a finished product. It matters. Best, Jack Wills

You have that all wrong, Hesh. You don't put your name on the "Inspected by" tag, you put "Inspected by #12", or
OK, #12. Then when someone asks to speak to #12 tell them they don't speak English.

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Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

Admirable....but really Hesh, save that for politics.

If I were the customer, perhaps the only additional step I would have taken before "going public" would have been a threat to the builder to go public. That might have been enough to prod a resolution that would have stayed off the radar.

In the end, heck...it is not so much "the bar" that has been raised (I think most of us know where the bar is). What has actually happened is that this thread has "closed the gap" between the bar and the average. It has raised the average (I hope).

To give credit where credit is due, you can thank the Montgomery County (Maryland) School Board for the "raise the bar" and "close the gap" cliches, as applied to public school grading (grade inflation some would say).

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The member formerly known as erikbojerik....

Interesting to see the perspective on the thread voiced over here...it's been a wild ride. As with most things, the situation is more complex than either the accusers or apologists would have it be, so we'll hope that in the end positive things result for everyone involved. It was certainly a wakeup call for the builder, and I think proves that "success" in the form of a high number of orders in a short time may not be all that it's cracked up to be.

I was involved in an unintended fiasco a year or two ago here when I started a thread asking about what others consider a reasonable level of fit and finish for a relatively inexpensive custom instrument and inadvertently "outed" a builder when I had no intention of doing so. I still feel really bad about it - called him to apologize after the fact and completely understood when he didn't accept it. The internet is definitely a dangerous realm where reputations are concerned - they're built and torn down in a day...sometimes less.

The irony of the situation is there are several layers to things that probably 95% of the participants in the AGF forum thread will ever be aware of, and it's certainly not worth trying to bring them up. A prominent poster on the AGS and very loud supporter of the luthier in question's guitars has rubbed a number of people the wrong way, and there's been several people who jump at every chance to post an "I've heard lots of bad things back channel" or "you sure see a lot of them for sale" comment as much to spite the prominent supporter as anything else. I know others have experienced fit and finish issues and there have been an unusually high number of guitars sold quickly after receipt, but I keep coming up against brick walls trying to get specifics. It's always "oh I've received LOTS of backchannel communication" and when I ask for specifics, i've been forwarded things like a PM saying "I've not played one, but I've heard others have had problems". Which doesn't really get me anywhere, obviously. It's been a source of frustration - I don't care who it is that have experienced problems, I just want to know exactly what the problems were so I can look for them on any guitar I receive in the future and to work with the luthier to improve those areas. It's one of those "where there's smoke there must be fire" things, I just can't seem to find the fire.

Anyway, good thoughts here.

Andrew

(Just to be transparent - I'm involved in the AGF thread as the aforementioned rep)

I am amazed that people do "pull the trigger" on a custom guitar that is the same value as a small family car, sight unseen....

The solution to this whole issue is blatantly obvious and stark in simplicity; Try before you buy.

Then how do you chose woods, tuners,bindings, purfling, inlays and other personal items that might be important to you?

Many do try before they buy, and it is very hard to move from that position. I know, I was there. Because of this builder's careless attention to important quality details in his build, more buyers have likely decided to never order a custom. This hurt more than just one guitar returned to one builder.

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"An adventure is only an inconvenience rightly considered. An inconvenience is an adventure wrongly considered." G. K. Chesterton.

Speaking as a guitarist for 20 years, I thought a guitar was a musical instrument, not an ornament. Or perhaps I have been mistaken all these years.

Playability, tone, weight of guitar and neck profile is vital for a guitar to compliment the ability of the player. The "rightness" of the guitar for the individual much depends on the compatibilty, and that cannot be assuaged until the customer has handled and played the luthier's wares.

Selling guitars and acquiring commissions "on the web" can be open to much abuse; Photographs can hide so much, recorded guitar samples can also be enriched with a little "reverb", Flashy animated websites, romantic bios, so on and so forth.

Perhaps it's a UK thing. We are reluctant to part with our hard earned cash until we have inspected the product thoroughly, in terms of the conditions I have described above AND getting a general idea of the fit & finish.

Often that can mean travelling miles to a guitar store/luthier workshop/guitar show. That extra effort pays off in the end.

I've been playing guitars for longer than you and building for about 3 years. A guitar is much more than a musical instrument to those that pursue custom orders. Perhaps it is that you don't feel the same as others about your instruments. That's fine, but don't judge those that feel that it is more than just a musical instrument. I have always felt it was more, much more.


Abuse can and does work both directions. I do agree with you. This build is a case in point.


I seriously doubt that. I think it is an individual thing.

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"An adventure is only an inconvenience rightly considered. An inconvenience is an adventure wrongly considered." G. K. Chesterton.

I haven't read the thread so i won't comment on it directly, and quite frankly I don't have the experience with this craft to do so with any level of confidence, with regards to flaws on the guitar.

However, in any business where you are providing a service, this type of thing happens. From both point-of-views. Sometimes a waitress does a poor job and the restaurant's reputation may suffer sorely because of it. How many people have ever got poor service at a restaurant, yet not said anything to the manager but told their friends that the service at XYZ cafe is horrible? Not that the service at one time was horrible...but the whole restaurant.

Certainly the internet provides limitless access to the instruments many of you make, and that same access comes with limitless opportunity for critique, positive or negative. Internet word of mouth can be a fantastic thing for websites, look at the thread on Kathy Matsushita. If it can do that, it can certainly work in the opposite manner.

I'm not quite so sure that the negative press one gets on a forum can even come close to the levels of traffic that will find your website. Maybe I'm being dense or naive, but i think that most people who read forums regularly get a sense of who is respected and knows what they are talking about. Most also get a sense of when a person is just being unreasonable and belligerant. There are some fantastic builders on this forum and after seeing the work that they do, if i were to read a post on a forum that ranted on an on about how shoddily they were treated, I would certainly question the state of mind of the person writing it based on my knowledge of that builder's work.

The way I have found most of your websites is my searches and then links from those other websites. It would be difficult to believe that a rant on a forum would have any bearing on me linking to your website from another.

Just an opinion from a newb who has no real emotional investment in this.

Darrin

I'm with Sam on this one. It's spooky how people will buy incredibly expensive stuff sight unseen off the net. Hell we even had one of our secretaries leave her husband and children and run off to Texas to hook up with a guy she'd only talked to on the net. (didn't last long)
If my experience the last few years is common there are a lot of folks that call about commissions that are so incredibly picky you know after the second or third call you will never be able to satisfy them. A lot seem to just want to impress you with their vast knowledge of guitars and seem to melt into the ether when the discussion evolves into a (gasp) down payment. I've gotten to the point that I only sell to people that have played one of my instruments or through a really nice guitar store I was lucky enough to develop a great relationship with. It certainly has simplified things and I now claim to be as happy as a clam.
Terry

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It's not what you don't know that hurts you, it's what you do know that's wrong.

I appreciate that you'll trust your firsthand experience more than the input of someone you don't know on something you've never seen.

Often the situation is that we (myself included) come to believe we have experience with someone's work because of the input of people we don't know discussing something we, and often they, have never actually handled.

Steve my friend I always read your posts and enjoy your input very much. I have come to know you as a person who will not accept junk science and you are one of my champions in this regard.

But I would respectfully disagree with the above statement and suggest that it is a bit of a leap that no one, you, I, our industry associations are capable of quantifying.

We all have received poor service and defective products but this does not "always" mean that we simply drop our requirement for what ever it was that we were not satisfied with. I seriously doubt that when this customer receives their refund that they will never purchase a custom guitar again.

Anyway regardless of what I believe or what you believe it can't be quantified as far as the impact on the industry. Although transactions such as this one certainly could hurt our industry there is another view here too. The issue WAS resolved and the customer received a refund. If I was a betting man, and I am......, I suspect that another builder will be receiving an order from this customer at some point. I also suspect that this is exactly why some of the builders who weighed-in in the original thread were quick to become customer advocates........... No disrespect intended.

Lastly - if one does believe that these things hurt our industry - now that the matter is resolved why perpetuate it?

Regarding misrepresentation and the propensity for same with the Internet - anyone ever done any Internet dating.......

And really lastly this time..... Terry I like your model of selling to people who can try your guitars! In the course of human relations many disagreements can be traced to a disconnect when it comes to understanding the expectations of the parties. Having access to a guitar built by the builder that a customer is considering is a great way for the customer to evaluate an instrument and a builder.

James,

So true, my friend. I fell prey to that in the past as I heard so many great things about
the incredibly flawless workmanship of a pair of builders as well as the tone of their
guitars that put to shame every other guitar that it was compared to.

I'd heard how these two had mastered the illusive art of hearing a tine in their heads
and then achieving it....using any back and side wood paired with any top wood. (Don't
even get me started on that subject) Claims of complexed and confusing scientific
formulas and math equations explaining and confirming all to be true and creating a
great mystique that floated around the very thought of their show stopping guitars.

The funny thing that I finally realized was that all of the incredible accolades came from
posts by themselves and about themselves and their skills and the quality of their guitars.
Many times the claims came with comments like, "I don't worry about the silliness of how
well the binding sits in its channels around the guitar or how tightly the neck sits against
the body....it's tone that's really important and that's all that matters to me and my very
knowledgeable and discerning customers."

I was finally able to play some guitars built by both after several years of hearing their
respective horns being self blown. Well, I sat back and played the guitars for a few minutes
and allowed to present the case for themselves and their creators. Then, I looked them over
with the eye of a builder who is very considerate and forgiving having come across almost
any trouble or hardship that the materials, tools and machinery we use to build guitars can
cause us as we do.

On both fronts, it was immediately clear to me that I'd been duped into thinking that the
things I was hearing were true and accurate. The tone of each of the instruments was equal
to that of a beginning or novice builder who was building in a hurry. They were tight and
somewhat muted and had little sustain. They were very generic compared to what all the hype
had primed me to expect to hear.

The fit and finish exhibited the same beginner or novice quality as the though the builders
were not really taking the time to understand the role of each part of th guitar, it's importance
as an individual part or as a part of the whole, the contribution that each part makes to the
tone and integrity of the guitar it is a part of or the proper way that each should be fitted to
and assembled with those adjacent to it.

Binding had loads of wide gaps, some of which had been filled, the neck sets were poorly
fitted and very sloppily seated, there gaps and holes in several places where they didn't belong
and the actual finish was horribly applied and not nearly brought to the level of sheen or gloss
that is expected by the educated and discerning players that are buying instruments in the
price range that both builders were placing them in.

In the public forums, if a comments is made about good, tight, clean fit between parts and a
nice smooth, professional looking finish being on a guitar, these two guys still jump into a thread
to sort of belittle the builders who pursue those things by saying that they're customers just don't
know what makes a good guitar and that tone is the only really important thing.

They criticize inlay because they can't do it, they try to create the perception that clean fit and
great finish aren't important because they will not make the time investment and discipline themselves
to learn how to achieve them at a higher level and they offer ridiculous math equations and formulas
to back the claims that their tone is arrived at through the application of them. Math and formulas
should only impress when the guitars' tone speaks as witness to their validity, sloppy fit and finish
can be accepted and tolerated, again, if the guitars' tone speaks as witness to their low place on the
priority list.

Their claims of excellence and knowledge suddenly took on the same context as, "Look, aren't
the emperor's new clothes beautiful. What beautiful fabric and and a perfect fit. All of the important
people who really know what they're talking about can see how gorgeous they are." Yada....yada...
yada.....and there were those guitars standing naked with their butt wedges showing for all to see.

My point is, take press lightly and find out for yourself...especially when the positive press is coming
from the person or people that it pertains to and will benefit. I make it a regular practice to point players
to a particular builder or builders whose work has really impressed me. So it doesn't do anything for me,
but I decided a long time ago, to allow this planet and universe to revolve around more than just my ego,
my feelings, and my success. I love guitars and am friends with many of the finest builders in the world.
I suffer the pangs of GAS as I hope to own a few guitars built by my very favorites one day and am not
afraid to let people know, from a luthier's standpoint, that a builder is worthy of serious consideration
as they decide on who they'll have build their next dream guitar. Not all...and sadly....not many builders
appear to share that sentiment or intent and would rather cut another to secure a sale. If the few grand
is worth it to them....more power to them, but there are things that are more important to me

Insecurity is a sad and ugly thing and it shows itself in sad and ugly ways in every industry and the
acoustic guitar industry has been no exception. It's still one of the most enjoyable venues to work in
and provides those working in it one the most enjoyable and educated customer bases of all...to me at
least.

Regards,
Kevin Gallagher/Omega Guitars

Wow... I guess in the spirit of Hesh, I'll try to find a middle ground. Not building instruments myself, I can only comment from theoretical psueo-knowledge. I could see it *might* be possible for the fingerboard to be lifted from damage in shipping, however, I would (perhaps erroneously) expect to see the entire length of the fretboard extension lifted off or at least a fold/crack in the extension or top if this were the case. Looking closely at the nut, it appears that the rear edge of the nut is actually set into a groove in the (very thick in my humble opinion) headplate, not resting in the nut slot at all. As much as it pains me to say this, I don't think the instrument should have left the shop with the nut set in that manner. At the very least, the customer would have to have a new nut made before the instrument would be playable, which does indeed add a cost to the instrument.

I've been very fortunate to have great experiences with the two luthiers whose instruments I've played extensively. I hope the customer in the thread is not completely turned off independent luthiers. Speaking solely for myself, if I had known about this forum before I bought a 1950 D-28, I wouldn't have bought a vintage instrument to languish in a case in favor of the two custom instruments that deliver more than what I believe the manufacturer of the vintage instrument was/is capable of delivering. Good investment-- 1 vintage and 2 custom guitars, yes. A better investment would have been 3 custom instruments from this maker.

Just my humble opinion and my $0.02-- which when combined with $6.28 (depending on the prices at your local Starbucks) and my autograph will get you a grande non-fat no whip white chocolate mocha and a cranberry orange scone... not to mention a nice smile from the cute girl at the counter.

John C.

[quote="Brock Poling] I just feel like a little piece of your soul goes into every one and when you allow one to slip by that you know has problems you are hurting yourself, the industry, and your customer. Everybody loses.

I am by far my own worst critic. I second guess everything. I fuss and fret over details that are so minor nobody will ever see them... but *** I *** know when things aren't just the way I want them... and it bugs me to the point where I almost can't deal with it. I am hardly alone. I think it is this DRIVE that propels all of us and we have to fiercely hold onto it.[/quote]

...I am by far my own worst critic.....

This is quite true and exactly how I feel. WIth every guitar I build I do my very best to avoid even the smallest of "issues" which are mostly cosmetic if they even occur at all. When dealing with a customer for the very first time, I make it VERY clear that my instruments are not lazer cut on million dollar machines and put together by robots. When they get a guitar from me, it was built by ME and nobody else and there are times when unavoidable cosmetic flaws happen, and in most cases they would have to go over the instrument with a magnifying glass to find them *IF* they could even spot them then. In the event that a purfling doesnt line up or a joint isnt as perfect as I think it should be, I will take a magnified picture and send it to the customer for his decision as to whether or not he wants me to proceed or replace the affected issue. That way, they know in advance what they are getting and no surprises to be upset about. Of course I also offer a 3 day no questions asked money back guarantee. So far, none have come back. The customer has had pictures of each and every step of the build and even up to the point where it was packed in the case before it was shipped, so he knows EXACTLY what he is getting. If he is unhappy, I give them one last chance to back out before it is shipped out to them. He also knows if something was damaged in transit.

I have never had problems with any of my customers being upset by any guitar I have sold. I have built a business based on referrals from satisfied customers telling others about the guitar they got from me. I have, however, had issues where other luthiers and wannabe luthiers make posts with insinuations that my guitars may be sub-standard because I have only been building full time for 3 years. Those are the posts that most aggrivate me and are most unwelcomed. I'm quite sure that if the shoe were on the other foot, it would be just as unwelcomed. I do my best to bite my lip and answer as honestly and as kindly as I can when one of these type of posts arise (and they have). I even try to come to the rescue of other sponsors when I feel they have been unfairly attacked. Other sponsors of that forum have also came to my rescue when I was unfairly attacked, and the efforts were GREATLY appreciated.

Believe it or not, I am most happy when one of you makes a sale, or 100 sales ! I wish you all the best in successful sales because I know first hand the joy that went into your craft. I want to share your joy instead of being jealous of your success. I personally dont feel like this is a competition although I understand there may be feelings otherwise by some. I dont want to compete, but rather my goal is to supply each and every customer with the guitar of their dreams using all of the craftsmanship and knowledge that I can muster for each and every build.

I enjoy what I am doing but you will never hear that I am a perfect person who doesnt make mistakes, although they are rare. I think it only sets yourself up for the kind of posts like the one on the AGF for disaster if you portray yourself as never making a mistake or never having a small cosmetic flaw. If one slips through after statements like that, then you can expect to be crucified.

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Reguards,

Ken H

I can see things from both sides and am glad the event which I felt was embarassing for all including myself and nothing was mentioned about the tone of the guitar in my quick scan of it. I've friends who are really hobbyist luthiers whose fit and finish is horrendous, he loves experimenting and would never dream of selling, and he usually ends up with wonderful tone and confesses not to how. I've a friend who bought a custom build guitar and it looked amazing with what I know when I looked it over I couldn't find a fault, but the tone was awful, after a 3 year wait he was gutted he played it for months hoping it would play in but never did and now is and expensive decoration!

Resulting from this several mutual friends who have always been dubious saying "you can't play a custom build and its all a gamble at least you can try a shop bought ones until you find something you like" none now would by a custom build because of it, and out of the 2 cases I know which guitar I'd rather play! Another thing they always say and on this I'd have to agree if you pay £1800 for a Martin you'd always be able to sell it for £1500 if you said the same for a custom build you'd be lucky to get £800 when you wanted to sell it and on this I'd have to agree.

All a complex and confusing matter any opinions on this? How do you talk people round with these opinions?

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Formerly JJH

I learn more from my mistakes than my successes

Not to go to Kevin's extreme example, but there are widely different levels of fit and finish. There are some builders out there who build outstanding instruments, tonewise, but the workmanship may be a little rough. The opposite is true. That doesn't mean that all great sounding guitar have an average to poor level of workmanship and that all guitars with flawless workmanship sound poor… Nor that all poor sounding guitars have flawless workmanship, or rough looking ones sound great…
Some builders have an incredibly high standard of workmanship, and the eye and technique to back it up, some others don't, or are less concerned. As for the excuse that tone is all there is, we all know what kind of BS that leads to…
From a customer point of view it is the same. Some people, as Terry points out, will never be satisfied, be it for fit or tone, and go along commissioning and selling guitar after guitar in search of the Holy Grail. They usually are the ones who love the guitar the first few months, it is THE best guitar they've ever come across, but after a while, move on. Need for novelty, belief that the guitar will magically improve the playing level, I do not know.
Some others are perhaps less finicky, or not, but settle with the instrument they ordered for years because they love the feel and sound. These are the people who actually enjoy playing and seeing the guitar mature everyday, month after month, year after year.
Finally let's not dismiss hype, if a builder gets a lot of credit (on the internet) (s)he will more easily be forgiven some roughness in the work. As long as the guitars sound great, and as long as the hype goes on…
As a final word the best thing for a buyer is to try to get her or his hands on a builder's instrument before commissioning. This is one of the reasons why some of us with recent of little reputation try to make a conscious effort to have guitars in select shops, for example. If it's not possible to try a guitar, the potential buyer is left exercising her or his own judgment. Corresponding and talking to the builder as much as possible is the best way to get a sense of the builder's personality. And needless to say, the builder's personality translates into the quality of the build IMHO…

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Laurent Brondel
West Paris, Maine - USA
http://www.laurentbrondel.com/

Man, I'm reading about all this built in latitude for mistakes, "makers hand, I'm only human, not a robot, etc.


What ever happened to a do over?

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Lance@LuthiersForum.com

Thanks, Lance! Glad to hear someone who sells to the public touts uncompromising quality. IMO, it's sad when we hear pros justify and rationalize their mistakes. I've seen too many not-ready-for-prime-time builders sell prematurely and pay the price for their impatience. Sadly, I've also seen well-established giants exhibit pure crap from a cosmetic standpoint and charge 5 figures for their guitars. Forget the tradeoff between tone and cosmetic appearance...for thousands of dollars, the customer deserves both!

I actually believe that the self-policing of quality and minimal standards is almost non-existent. There's always a balance between being nice, and standing up for the high ideals of the craft. I believe folks have been overly nice at the expense of holding pros to high performance and quality. In the end, it will be better for all involved in building as well as buying.

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

Not to push your buttons at all here but if it's not "as perfect as you think it should be" why would you let it go to the point of letting the customer decide by sending them magnified pictures? Wouldn't you want it to be "as perfect as you think it SHOULD be" and just re-do it?

In my opinion, a guitar which I sell for someone else's hard earned money should be as perfect as I can make it in my own eyes. If I end up having review after review that my work is not up to the standard of my pier's than it would be time for me to stop selling and raise my standard or stop building and start basket weaving. This is not directed at anyone but myself.

Yes, mistakes can happen but that doesn't mean that the customer has to live with them. If a mistake happens just correct it. It will surly save one's reputation and will also ensure that one is putting out the best product they can with no excuses.

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My Facebook Guitar Page

"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson

Ken buddy,

No offence here, but I would just as soon crawl under a rock and die as to send a
picture of a mistake to a client and ask them what would they like ME to do "Fix it or move on?"
In my opinion that is your choice not theirs.

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Lance@LuthiersForum.com