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O.k., I'm doing this primarily to be devil's advocate but, if the differences are subtle, are they significant? That's to ask, could you have built the next guitar just as well without having read it?

Has anyone heard a drastic improvement after reading the book?

The point I guess is, if you read a book and then continue to do things as you have before reading the book, what's the point? Those of you who've read it, what are you doing differently now than before?

(I know you mentioned that your assessment has improved after reading which is valuable as well but in a different way)

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I don't usually communicate with the Devil or his advocates, but I believe I stated in some part of the incomplete, quoted post that I didn't know whether it was just experience or the book. Unlike Tom, above, I really appreciated Ervin's banter. And, while he may have some things "scientifically" or "physics wise" a bit wrong, technically, he explains, if you read it carefully, that it's partly his way of understanding some of the things. It works for him. When you sell guitars for $30K you can write a book! He's an English major, and has a wry sense of humor, and, IMO is a pretty good writer. I found the books to be full of good information, and the end notes had as much info as the main part of the book. I like the books, and have read "The Responsive Guitar" twice, and will, most likely, read it again. It certainly is not the "Bible" of guitar making. That one isn't out yet, but I'm waiting. Right now it's on loan to a friend who builds using more of the "scientific method" than I do. And, by the way, Tom, I build only classical guitars too, and thought they related directly to the subject. I found his perspective as a Flamenco player to be very pertinent.

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Waddy

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Sound Clips of most of my guitars

I'm with Tom Dl on this
Having read the sample chapters on the web and on the DVD, I kept my money in my pocket.

I spent the bucks when I had it. For me the answer is no...

Well worth the full price to me, but I am a newbie steel string builder with a thirst for knowledge and a thought process pretty similar to Ervin, and thus very much enjoy the writing style and approach to building. Can't say what difference the books made since I read them before bracing my first top, but I'm pretty sure it wouldn't sound as good as it does if I hadn't, and that I wouldn't have learned as much from building it.

He does make reference to fan braced classical and flamenco guitars pretty frequently, but most of the focus is on X bracing and how it functions structurally and dynamically. But a lot also is how bracing in general behaves as a system, so you'll probably still learn something useful.

Hey, I never did make it over to your shop before, Ernie. I could bring the books over if you'd like. I'd like to give the Courtnall and Bogdanovich books a quick run-through as well. Are you free tomorrow morning/afternoon? I'm on an early sleep schedule at the moment, so as soon as you're fully woken up is fine for me.

"Unlike Tom, above, I really appreciated Ervin's banter. And, while he may have some things "scientifically" or "physics wise" a bit wrong, technically, he explains, if you read it carefully, that it's partly his way of understanding some of the things."

It isn't banter, or any other aspect of style that turned me off. It was as if every time I started I would run into: Spelling mistakes (I am not a spelling nazi); Incorrect science; his personal issues and grievances; Etc... And I would just put the book back down. I couldn't get started. I was particularly stunned at the chapter on why build/buy a luthier built guitar. I almost lost my conviction after reading that one. I hate it when people try to define stuff like what it means to be a luthier, though since it is pretty flattering I imagine it might go over among the troops. I liked the chapter on gorilla marketing.

The wordy stuff was a chapter or craft or hand work, or the economics of making, that seemed like a first year essay. I consider myself a fairly disciplined reader, and have been known to read magazines from cover to cover, ticking off the articles in the index. I just couldn't take this book, but I'm just one potential buyer from thousands.


" It works for him. When you sell guitars for $30K you can write a book!"

I don't know what his average price is, but I agree with you. But what I want is the book about the stuff that makes a guitar worth 30K, or even 15. As he says himself, he was asked to write a concise book, and probably it was beneath him since he is the guy who can write about the 30K guitar. But the book he actually decided to write was an encyclopedia. In such a comprehensive volume there is the following stuff that I didn't find helpful:

- There is stuff he doesn't have any particular expertise on
- The stuff that is not state of the art
- The stuff that is wrong
- The stuff that appeared elsewhere and I had already paid for, in some cases twice
- The stuff he holds out on
- The stuff, that like C&N is a mishmash between classical and steel string
- The stuff that is better covered elsewhere (I hope). I am looking forward to reading Clark on rosettes, maybe Clark's tape on FP, though I never hear it referred to, and if I wanted to do something special on intonation I would re-read Byers, etc...

But there is every reason to believe there are people out there who are looking for an Encyclopedia, and will value this book. I would have loved this book more if I was just starting out.

One thing I find is that there aren't really any fully satisfying books out there for guitarmakers, and also, that a lot of the stuff that is available is pretty expensive, relative to other crafts I am in. So I apologize for being a little ruthlessly selective. I bought a ton of books when I first got into this. But I have never built from any of them. I have referred to them for details, but that stuff is all online now. I CAD or Gthang outlines, I have used plans twice. Wfret fret spacings. Get bracing designs from all sources. Jigs from all sources, and Charles Fox. Fretting from Erlewine, Sdhneider, and Bogdonovitcvh. Etc... Study the traditions. And pick up stuff from every one of you.

The Bogdanovich video is excellent. What makes it so good is that his focus is you, not his ego. He wants you to succeed at making a Classical guitar, and he leaves no stone unturned. His only legacy effort is in being the best teacher he can be. Is every technique the Everest of guitar making. Maybe not, I see him making a few substitutions. But he doesn't back away from getting you launched on a pro grade instrument. He does hold back bit on the voicing, but then it either can't exactly be taught, or nobody has done it at this price of admission.

@ TomDI: Have you ever played a Somogyi Steelsting? If no, i can understand that you didnt understood the book. If yes, I dont know where you a talking about.

Best Regards, Alex

I saw Grit Laskin give a presentation once where he was asked why his guitars were priced as high as they are. His answer was that if the "effort" to build a guitar of certain quality was X, then to improve the quality by Y% required an increased effort of greater than Y%. It's hard to write but he was referring to diminishing returns. A small increase in performance usually requires a large amount of effort.

I say this because I think many people here can build a guitar of quality X. What they want to know is how to improve the quality of their guitars. To do so will normally require building many, many guitars with controlled changes (such as thinner braces or different patterns) to determine the effect. Most of us can't do that or want to wait the many years it would take. So instead we look to forums, books, DVDs for the answers. There are many resources that are modestly priced that will give the basics. Unless a resource will clearly and completely "spill the beans" on how to get your guitar to the next level then the value likely isn't there.

A lot of mixed reviews. It probably depends a lot on how much you already know. If you already know what he writes in his books, then it isn't much good, is it? If, however, there is much that you didn't know that you then would know, then it would be good. The best way to find out if you already know what he shows in his books is to find them and read them. Then you'll know if they're worth it or not. Ya know?

"@ TomDI: Have you ever played a Somogyi Steelsting? If no, i can understand that you didnt understood the book. If yes, I dont know where you a talking about."

I haven't played his steel string guitars, but so what?

1) The OP asked about the book from the Classical guitar builder perspective. I think the book is much stronger from the SS perspective.

2) I am not reviewing his guitars. I don't think I would be qualified. What I do know is what kinds of books I find useful and what kind I don't. That is my area of expertise. I have read ES's articles over the years, read coverage of him in a book or two. I have met him at an ASIA conference, He was displaying some of his pierced work, and it had become damaged, and we were cleaning up glass, etc... I think he presented, or was active in another presentation that I attended at that conference. I researched the book before buying it, and read the article and chapters on his website. I no longer own the books so I can't make specific references.

pthes, I think you have it. As Ben Hogan once said, the secret to golf "is in the dirt". Meaning you have to keep hitting balls until you find it. Well in guitars, it's "in the spruce" as far as I am concerned.

No?

Yes!

Maybe?

great post TOM

Dennis call me .PHone number is in PM I wil be here all day today . Friday after 2 pm and here the whole weekend . Did not realze that somogyi books would stir up so much controversy

I understand why there are reasons that folks would not want the books. They are a bit expensive and times are tough.But they are cheap for the total data that they contain. People may not like Somogyi's style. Some folks may be looking for a silver bullet. But I think that they are by far the best out there to help you understand how the guitar work and they make you focus on your own building philosophy. Any one who says that they don't contain enough technical data for the price should sit down and write their version of the guitar bible. It should turn out to be quite informative and no doubt lots of folks would be willing to buy it.
Tom

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A person who has never made a mistake has never made anything!!!

Any time ES's name is mentioned re his books or his classes, there is an argument. Some folks just don't like his approach. That's their privilege. Personally, I do, but that's me. I don't care what others think. I know it made me think in different ways about what I was doing. Can't say it was earth-shaking, but I believe, and others who've read them, seem to agree that they are pretty good books. Many just don't like his approach, and see him as a person just trying to make a buck. I'd say yep, and so would he.

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Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

Dennis Kinchloe was kind enough to bring over the 2 ES books I thought they were great, and very well written, while he perused the courtnall, and bogdanovitch. books. My philosophy about instrument making, is you can learn from everyone. By peering into the workshops of other makers, through books, dvds etc, , we can evaluate, or decide if their methods or style of doing things, is in sync with our approach to the craft. I have read all of krenovs books and used the information to design a violin cabinet.I highly recommend his books, thanks to all those who threw their opinions in the ring.

SOLD.
Michael

One thing I would not say about them is that he just did it for the money. His Website article makes it sound as though cost recovery may be a long shot. In that sense they cost what they cost, and if you wanted this book set available that is what it costs to make that happen.

My dad has been deeply involved in producing scholarship that helps keep our connection to the past, and will be in most major collections the world over. My dad loves doing it, but at 85 it is tough sledding even to ramp up an all day's concentration. And if you encounter major problems with your texts, you may get a trip to the hospital. In 25-30 years, he hasn't covered his expenses by more than maybe 5%. So, it is a fact that people will work for no money, and many will work for little if any recognition. Or brave the possibility that some of the recognition they get is negative. Kinda like golf...

I guess it all comes down to,
how much money you have to spend?
We all want he best tools, and information.
If ya got the bucks,
go for it.
Or, get some supplies,
hang on this forum,
and whittle away!
Oh, buy from the sponsers here.