Official Luthiers Forum!

I've been moving towards finishing up my first build which I intend to do a burst finish on and I've begun to look at spray equipment. I really have two things to consider right now and that is applying toner to do the burst, and spraying my lacquer. I was at the store today looking at badger airbrushes and I have to say I was a bit put off by the price. I'm just building a few guitars right now and I'm not threatening to go into production anytime soon. I just don't know if I can justify spending over $100 on an airbrush alone as I still need to buy another gun to spray lacquer.

So I got thinking, what if I bought a touch up gun instead and used it to pull double duty? It seems as far as volume is concerned it would handle an appropriate amount of lacquer as I'd just be finishing one guitar at a time and don't see why I'd need half a quart worth on hand at a time. I'm guessing with an airbrush I could get finer atomization and finer line width, but I'm not sure I need that for a burst. Does anyone have any opinions about this, or else some suggestions for an airbrush, touch up gun or hvlp? I have access to a spray booth and don't need any peripheral equipment although I'm unsure of what kind of air supplies work for an airbrush. Can you run one with a regulator on a standard compressor or is it best to buy one of the mini compressor's I've seen packaged with the airbrushes?

Also while I'm at it, is it okay to use shellac as a sealer with Behlen's instrument lacquer? Or is it best to use the vinyl sealer?

Thanks in advance!

The touch up guns I've used in the past weren't delicate enough for something as small as a guitar. Maybe some folks on here have been able to make them work.

I use a set of Miller airbrushes I bought back in the 70's at K-Mart - the electric compressor, 2 airbrushes, 6 nozzles, and 3 bottles were a huge $19 back in the day. I still use them.

Here's what the airbrush looks like:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/J-Miller-airbru ... 1c298dcc39


Look around.... you can find something that will work for less than $100.

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"Act your age, not your shoe size" - Prince

I would advise going another direction and getting a siphon fed old school gun and use it for both. Harbor Freight makes one that will work. Or an old Devillbis 502 if you have a good compressor will lay down a fantastic finish, both burst and clear coats. My ultimate advise is to get two HF guns, one for bursts and one for clear and don't mix and you will be loving life. 20 bucks each. Then you will have money left for lacquer, sanding sealer and good sanpaper. Then all you need is a good buffer.
http://www.harborfreight.com/air-tools/paint/industrial-paint-spray-gun-43760.html
Shellac is a universal sealer but must be dewaxed. Vinyl or sanding sealer is probably better though. If you are going for a traditional look with lacquer, you can't go wrong using the old school tools. Lacquer is the hardest thing to screw up unless you are trying to use modern tools designed for low overspray.

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Ken

I've use a touchup gun exclusively (spraying EM6000). I think it's fine ...a perfect size for guitars IMO and well suited to subtle bursts (both dye on bare wood and toned lacquer). I have an inexpensive airbrush from Stewmac but rarely have a need to use it. (I can be run right off the compressor)

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Dave
Milton, ON

I've got a Binks touch up, or "jamb" gun that is perfect for gits.
I've got air brushes too,
and they are good for small touch up,
but I wouldn't want to finish a whole guitar with one.
You can dial the amount of fluid down to nothing,
so go with a touch up gun, IMO.
Pay as much as you can.
I've had mine for over 30 years,
and keep it really clean.
Still works perfectly!
Occaisionally needs seals.

I've been using a small Kobalt brand HVLP gun. It's probably considered a touch up gun. It's worked out very well performance and size wise. Though it is wearing out because I don't think it was designed to use lacquer. Rubber and plastic parts inside are slowly melting away and it started leaking air recently. The blue color from the cup cap also slightly leeches into the lacquer if you're not careful. Next time I'll spend a few more bucks and get something all metal. I love the smaller size of the gun though.

I don't spray lacquer, but I do use an airbrush for stains and sometimes shellac. I've got the cheapest Badger beginner airbrush, and a cheap airbrush compressor. If I did much with color, I'd upgrade to a real compressor, but the cheap single-action brush works fine.
I've tried to spray lacquer with the brush, but it just didn't work out. Might work better with more air.
I'd recommend a cheap airbrush for the color, and some kind of gun for the lacquer, and whatever compressor for the gun should also work for the brush.

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A man hears what he wants to hear, and disreguards the rest. Paul Simon

When I built my F style mandolin I used an airbrush for the tobacco sunburst, but since then I've just used a small "jamb" HPLV gun. Here is a thread about doing a '59 burst on a Lester - the finishing starts on page 8

http://acapella.harmony-central.com/sho ... Paul/page8

I think some folks use a full size gun for bursting, but with a little one you can mix a small amount of tinted lacquer and not waste it.

I have a Badger 200 that I use for small finish repairs that are too big for a drop fill. I use it for bursts as well. I can do a burst with my gravity HVLP, but I prefer the air brush for it's fine control and ability to feather the shading out better. I have never really liked the feel of a door jamb/ touch up gun. Too big for touch ups on small items like guitars and too small for any real finishing.

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Brian

You never know what you are capable of until you actually try.

https://www.howardguitarsdelaware.com/

wow, so lots of opinions about this, seems we're kind of all across the board. I think what I'm going to do is buy a cheap airbrush, maybe something in the $60 or less range and go for an HVLP quart gun. I've also struggled with the size of touchup guns before, they just don't feel right to me as far as balance is concerned. Of course some of that is probably the 3/8" ID rubber hose we use at our shop dragging around behind me.

Okay, while we're on the subject what is the deal with gravity feed versus siphon feed? I've always sprayed with pressure pots or quart siphon feeds and haven't used a gravity fed. What are the advantages of gravity feed and are they comfortable to spray with? Seems a bit top heavy to me but like I said I've never used one. Also if I were to get a gravity feed I've noticed a lot of them come with a plastic hopper, is this a problem with solvent based lacquer?

I'm usually a guy who tries to buy the highest quality tool I can even if it's above my price range. With that said, I've already spent so much gearing up to put together my shop, I really don't see myself going out and spending $200+ on a lacquer gun right now. I would like something decent, but I sort of want to make sure I'm going to like it before I spend a ton of money on a tool that really won't get a ton of use. I'd really rather upgrade my table saw again...

Anyways, any suggestions for things on the cheap would be welcome. I'd like to have a gun that I can purchase different needles and tips for and something that's not so off-brand that I won't be able to find rebuild kits for. Anyone try the TCP global house brand guns?

As far as tools go, I'm usually a top-of-the-line guy myself. For power tools especially, I've found that it's frequently better to initially get the cheapest alternative and try it out, particularly if there's a wide price range. Usually they work OK, at least for a while. If I use it enough to wear it out, I'll buy a better one.
That was my idea when I got the airbrush, for about $20. I haven't gotten a better one because I don't use it that much and I like the simplicity of operation.

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A man hears what he wants to hear, and disreguards the rest. Paul Simon

This gun feels good to use for me,
but my friend who uses a top cup gun said it felt weird to him.

I think one of the important issues that no one has touched on so far is nozzle size, regardless of the airbrush or spray gun used. We use metric sizes here, so please excuse the metric and then google the imperial sizes.

I have a 0.5 mm internal-mix dual-action airbrush that I use exclusively for chip repair touch ups. I have tried using it in the past for bursts but find the spray pattern a little too narrow for my tastes, although feathering is a dream.

For bursts I use a gravity feed touch-up gun, once again with a 0.5 mm nozzle, but a wider spray pattern is achieved with the air-horns. Similar story, the spray pattern is a little too narrow for my liking for spraying overall bodies and necks.

For final clears and solid colours I use a gravity feed with a 1.4 mm nozzle set (I find this may be a little too heavy for finishing guitars, so when I'm due for a nozzle change I'll probably go for a 1 mm set). As can be guessed, my personal preference leans towards gravity feed over siphon feed simply because I can mix exact quantities as opposed the inevitable waste that the siphon tube simply doesn't reach in the bottom of the pot.

I hope that adds to the topic,

Wayne.

I have had no problems with the plastic feed cups with any finish I have used. I use both a gravity feed and a HVLP with the cup underneath like a siphon cup gun. The only real difference I see is in the balance of the gun.. The gravity feed is easier to clean.



Doubt I'll buy another high dollar spray gun. Been using these from harbor frieght for a while now
http://www.harborfreight.com/20-oz-high ... 47016.html
At $15 they are virtually disposable, but they last a good while. Yes you only get one tip size but as long as you get your reduction dialed in it's not a problem. Works about as well as guns I paid 10X more for.

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Brian

You never know what you are capable of until you actually try.

https://www.howardguitarsdelaware.com/

That seems like the ticket to me Brian, I am pretty selective about what I'll by from Harbor Freight but something I'll use so infrequently is an exception. Looks like I could pick up one of these and an airbrush for under $100, with a water catch, regulator and lightweight hose. I think I'm going to try the gravity feed, I certainly like the idea of it being easier to clean, plus the idea of being able to use all of the material before it starts choking seems like a good selling point.

so I took Brian's advice and got the gun he linked to at Harbor Fright. (not a mis-spelling, lol)

while I was there I picked up one of their airbrushes as well, it was a scant $17, not too bad. I'm wondering if anyone has any more advice for me, as the next couple steps are a bit fuzzy. I've gone through and popped my grain, and gotten a nice even base color down through a series of wiping stains that I mixed up. Here's a look:



So what I'm going for is a root beer burst finish so I'm planning on using a slightly darker color moving into a root beer brown color towards the edge of the guitar. I've been using transtint dyes for my staining so far and was planning on mixing my toner with these and alcohol, but I'm beginning to question that. At the cab shop I work at we've used toners for years to even out stained finishes, and for the most part we simply mix Sherwin Williams dyes with lacquer thinner that we apply in fog coats. There are a couple problems with this though that mainly has to do with developing fisheye if the toner is applied to heavy.

What would be recommended here? Should I apply a sealer coat, (using behlen's instrument lac and vinyl sealer) and then mix my colors with alcohol first and then a slight bit of lacquer for adhesion? I was reading on another site that you can spray lacquer through an airbrush if you thin it way down, but will it be okay to mix the color with alcohol first or will this cause a compatibility issue?

At my shop we're strictly nitro lacquer and conversion varnish, so I don't have really any experience working with shellac or alcohol. I feel like I should at least seal the guitar first so I can control the color better. I'm concerned that spraying another color onto my still open wood will lead to problems...

as before, any help is greatly appreciated!

Definitely seal the wood before trying to do the burst. I would seal and lay a few coats of clear to create a good base for the burst. ]This will allow the option of removing the bust should it go bad without messing up your nice stain job. Unlike the fogging we do to even out a stain job, creating a burst is more like laying down candy paint on cars. If the underlying finish is not flat your translucent shading may appear spotty, so you may need to level sand before applying the burst. If you do sand, work it out really fine so the scratches don't show up in the shading. Add some of your toner directly to the lacquer (no alcohol) to create a translucent shading lacquer. I don't use transtint, but I can add 8oz per gallon of the tint I use which is way more than I would want. You really shouldn't need to thin out this material much more for the airbrush than what you are using in the gun. Spray out your burst, I like to create the shading with 3-4 coats, each staying a little closer to the edge. Tint your lacquer accordingly as the tone gets darker with each coat. Or you can be brave and go for the whole burst in one coat, splay the spray pattern out at an angle toward the inside so you get more material out at the edge. Even coats are the key, if the shader gets thicker in spots it will be darker there. After it has dried you can adjust the feathering of the shading a bit if you need to by carefully sanding to even out the tone. Apply enough clear over this so that you are comfortable that the shader will be completely under it after it is sanded and buffed. Of course I would spray test panels first to get a feel for how it will go. Looks great so far! Can't wait to see it when you're done.

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Brian

You never know what you are capable of until you actually try.

https://www.howardguitarsdelaware.com/

I think that if you are going for a PRS type finish you might consider sanding that stained wood back to only leave it in the deep flame. Then spray a sealer coat of vinyl sealer over it and proceed with your burst. I have seen staining directly on the wood look good under a burst and clear coat but generally it is clearer and looks better without stain in the wood.

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Ken

This is a 'burst, done entirely on bare wood with a touchup gun, after first spraying a rough 'burst & sanding it back.

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Dave
Milton, ON

That is a masterful finish. Beautiful guitar!

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Ken

Ken you very well could be right about this, sadly I won't know until the next one. I did pop the grain with a dark stain first, sanded back and then brought it to this color with first a reddish stain and then a light orange. This afternoon I put down the sealer coats so now I'm going to stick with the original plan. I've been reluctant to put the color coats on the main part of the guitar as a spray because, (and this is my experience probably biting me in the ass), when we spray toner at my cabinet shop it always ends up kind of obscuring the grain. I think though that this may not be the case with gloss lacquer, and my experience is all with satin or flat, our standard cabinet finishes.

Anyways, what's done is done and I'm not looking back. I think I'll still end up being happy with the finish and I'm allowed to make mistakes, this is after all my first guitar. I'll probably take your advice next time

Thanks for this Brian, lots of good info there. I'm going to get a couple coats of lacquer down before I try to get the burst going, hopefully that'll be in the next week. Here's another question, how many coats after the burst color goes on would be a good amount to do a safe buff out with? 5? 8? 10? I'm not accustomed to doing so many coats of lacquer, we're usually a coat of sealer and then a couple coats of lacquer at my shop but obviously we're not cutting and buffing our cabs. Is there anything I should know about laying down so much lacquer? Can I recoat in a few minutes, a few hours or what? I'm a little concerned that if I go too fast with too many coats I'm going to end up trapping solvent under a skinned over topcoat and have problems.

Thank you so much for your help!

wow, that is gorgeous Dave, nice and subtle. I've got a lot to learn about this stuff, and it looks like there are many different ways to achieve a beautiful result.

John, what kind of color are you going to be using for the burst? Typical furniture stuff may not work as well, I've not had much luck using it for translucent color. The MEK soluable metal acid colors from LMII are my favorite.

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A man hears what he wants to hear, and disreguards the rest. Paul Simon

I'm using transtint colors and behlen instrument lacquer on this. I was referring up above to having previous experience with furniture finishes but I'm not using that stuff on this.