Official Luthiers Forum!

Dear Luthiers:

Please pardon this intrusion by one of your humble clients, a player who knows next to nothing about what you do but has always been most grateful for it.

Short Question: Can good luthiers (possibly doubling as electric-guitar techs so as to ensure a sufficient volume of business) make a decent income working half days (average 5 hours per day, six days a week)--enough to support a single person, say, $25,000/year? (Presumably, of course, living in a city with lots of potential clients, not a small town.)

Background (why I'm asking this--not as mercenary as it seems):

I've got a teenage nephew who is a highly gifted singer with an excellent voice, and he is a decent rock guitarist. I am teaching him both classical and electric styles (my classical credentials include a couple of semesters under the supervision of Richard Savino at Cal-State Sacramento when he first got there many moons ago--I never became a very good classical player, but I did get some pretty good instruction that I am capable of passing on).

So what? Well, he wants to become a professional rock musician. His voice is good enough that he just might have a chance. On the other hand, I am well aware of that road's uncertainties and risks, so I'm trying to figure out how to best advise him to go about it, and above all try to keep him from the trap of working podunk, dead-end day jobs (eg McDonalds) while he makes the attempt, because 1) those jobs suck the energy & creativity right out of you--the last thing you need while trying to become an artist; 2) they suck up way too much of the time you need to use in becoming that artist; and 3) if things ultimately don't work out, he'll have wasted perhaps the better part of a decade of his most productive adult years with nothing at all to show for it, and he'll have to essentially start all over again with a new career--a lot later than most people do. Not the way to go!

Since I'm posting this particular question here, I think you can now guess what I have in mind. My nephew started classical way too late to ever make a career in that direction, but he is now avidly working his way through Noad, so taking some time to become a luthier is something that might well appeal to him if he could support himself with it after he's done with high school by only working part time. I see part-time work as the critical piece of the puzzle: to really give his music the best chance, he'll need plenty of time to practice his instrumental and vocal exercises--a couple of hours daily--as well as an average of three more hours on top of that for songwriting, learning covers, band practice, and of course gigging and promotion.

So that's the crux: as a decent luthier/guitar tech, could he work part time and still support himself (at a starving-student level only, of course--we're talking a means to an end here, at least at first).

I guess I ought to make it clear that if luthiery would serve this purpose, then yes, learning the craft is an immediate option for my nephew. His retired grandfather, who also lives in town (not my side of the family), is a master woodworker who has a shop equipped with around $20,000 worth of the fanciest machines and jigs you can imagine. The guy is a wizard with wood (he makes all sorts of fine furniture but his specialty is high-end, museum-quality decorative wooden vases and bowls, hands down the most beautiful art objects I've ever handled personally). I don't want to give the impression that I think making guitars is easy, so please don't take offense if I seem to disparage the effort it takes to become an accomplished guitar maker/repairperson. But the fact is that the grandfather really does know his delicate woodcraft, and I'm sure that given a few good books and the next couple of years, he could help his grandson learn to turn out decent basic acoustics. Doubtless my nephew would need a final polish from a real luthier, but grandpa should be able to help him get all the fundamentals with no expense or travel--therefore becoming a luthier is in fact a genuine possibility here. And later, if things don't work out as a pro musician, he'll still have a solid career and won't need to do any (sorry, can't resist the pun) retooling unless he really wants to.

So that's the long version of the question. Would luthiery do for my nephew what I'm hoping? And again, I mean no disrespect to the craft and mysteries of luthiery by my assumption that the grandfather could get the basics from a book or two. He just seems to be able to do nearly anything in the way of fine wood.

Short answer is no.
Most successful repair people or builders have spent years and years learning, experimenting and living in abject poverty. Most still live in poverty (myself included) and the running joke is "Don't quit your day job!"
Even while spending years and years learning the trade, that is not guarantee you will make a living at it. A lot of luck and the right kind of "promotion" come into play. That usually means running into the right people, and doing a lot of stuff for free. Splitting time between learning that bidness and musicianship leaves little time for sleep.
Topping all that off, I have a feeling that the field is more of an avocation than vocation, and the requirements are impossibly high, the monetary rewards low and as the world turns more and more to throw away junk, a decline in need.
Frankly, he would probably make more $$$ learning cabinetmaking from Grandpa.
Sorry to sound harsh, but it is not as glorious a profession as it would seem to be...

He (indeed anyone) has a much better chance with repair. To be a good repair person and to cover most types of repairs takes a good few years of gaining the skills. To be a top level restorer takes a decade or so. Add on a few years to gain a reputation and that might give you an idea of just how difficult it is. Even then there are no guarantees of any success. It could turn out to be an expensive waste of time. Just remember, no one hands over their precious instrument (even relatively cheap ones) to an unknown hoping that they will do a decent job. You pretty much have to start right from the junk instruments, doing repairs for nothing. Slowly work your way up from there. It costs. Tools, time and even buying broken instruments just to gain the experience.
Openings at established repair workshops are extremely limited and it's highly unlikely they will take on anyone without any real repair experience anyway. Why should they? There are plenty of people from the pool of makers/repairers who have some experience. Sounds difficult? It is.

I can totally relate to this! I finished a boatbuilding and furniture making course a year ago and had been building guitars in my spare time. Afterwards I really wanted to turn it into a business, so I sorted out a workshop for myself, started building and then went and got a 'part time' job at mcdonalds to pay the bills until it started turning a profit...
Well a year later I decided to quit it all and I've now got a job at a high end custom furniture maker. The problem was I had no business experience (which I now see is essential) and that awful creativity-draining part time job just about kills any motivation to work when you get home. I'm very glad I realised my mistake this soon and didn't waste a decade of my life! I've decided to carry on luthiery in my spare time, but just doing it as a hobby - it makes it so much more fun!
I'm not saying it can't be done, I'm just saying that it is a massive amount of work and stress trying to run a business while having another job at the same time, especially if you are early 20's and inexperienced like me!
I wish your nephew all the best though.

_________________
"I am always doing that which I cannot do, in order that I may learn how to do it."
Pablo Picasso

https://www.facebook.com/FenskeGuitars

He's better off working at Mc Donald's where he doesn't need to invest himself in learning skills and distractions from what he really wants to do. Becoming a professional musician requires all the work and dedication a person can muster. Most of the musicians I've known don't have the mindset to perfect the skills lutherie requires. You might try hooking him up with a rich girlfriend. Then whether he winds up as a musician or a luthier he can still eat.

While my shop is only open a few hours a day a few days a week, I am in it working well more than 40 most weeks. The times the door is closed is when I am doing complex things that I cannot stop to take a look at what you may have brought in. This is not a part time job, you will never make a living at this part time. It's pretty tough to make one at this full time.

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Brian

You never know what you are capable of until you actually try.

https://www.howardguitarsdelaware.com/

There are a whole lot more potential customers for a custom kitchen or bathroom than there are for a custom guitar, and the required skill for building a custom kitchen or bathroom is much less demanding. Building guitars is no way to make money, even for those who want to commit their lives to it. Your nephew doesn't even fit in that category. You are looking for something he can fall back on if he cannot be a rock star. So, he won't even have the level of commitment that would maybe give him a chance to succeed. Hook him up with the cabinetmaker. That is a useful and marketable skill, even at the "slightly more than novice" level.

Ever listen to vintage Bill Cosby? More specifically "Noah" where the operative question (and advice in this case...) was/is "How Long Can You Tread Water....."

First thanks for being a fantastic uncle and caring about your nephew!

My business partner and I run a very busy and successful repair business in a very musical location, Ann Arbor Michigan. In a way we inherited some of our business from a previous business that had been a music store for 52 years. As such when we started we had a boost of sorts from the "good will" of the previous biz and I should mention that this also includes a long list of folks who had marked off the previous biz as a prospect for their business as well. You take the good with the bad.... like it or not....

Anyway with over 1,000 guitars coming and going annually we are likely one of the highest producing shops in terms of revenue represented (at times....) on this forum with only a very few exceptions. As such you might be interested in what these sorts of businesses can produce in terms of revenue.

Although I'm not going to get specific with numbers... what I will say is that there is a top tier of Lutherie where a decent living can be made However.... in my experience, and I have experience in the Lutherie biz world, those who currently operate in this top tier took a better part of a life time to get there AND they earned it as well in that this journey is by no means easy.

Grads from lutherie schools don't always find work in their desired field and when they do it can take a few years to secure a decent position and the pay is not that great either. As such from the get go my advice for anyone insisting on abject poverty (nod to Haans) would likely do better going their own way and opening their own biz as opposed to working for someone else.

I'm retired and have made my way in the world and as such ready to stay close to home these days and have fun. This is code for not make much money.... So for me our business is fun, great fun, and I love what I do more so than anything else that I have ever done prior.

Let's talk about data. Do you know that the musical instrument resellers keep data on our industry? They most certainly do and in the past two years guitar sales have declined slightly, globally, for the first time in recorded history. Does this mean that our beloved guitars are destined to be replaced by an app on an IPad.... No but it does mean that the old adages about making a hobby into a business may apply here too. The geezers like me who love our axes will always be prospects for what we do but then again geezers like me tend to have fixed incomes and may not be the best source of lots of expensive repairs....

It's clearly a niche biz and in my opinion best suited for someone who is not just starting out, has other income, a significant other for financial contributions and/or health insurance (although this is changing, the health insurance part in the US) before making the jump to being a light-in-the-wallet-Luthier....

At the very least this is not also in my opinion a prospective profession for one to point others in the direction of if those being pointed are not absolutely, head over heels in love with Lutherie on their own account. Or, in other words, it needs to be the person's own idea in my opinion because of the high level of drive, frequent sacrifice, and very limited returns not to mention how very susceptible to the ups and downs of the greater economy this biz can be too.

As for building I can't tell you how many folks I personally know who spent thousands, hung out a shingle, sold to friends and family and an occasional so-called.... pro musician and then had to quit, get real and get a day job. Just because we love something does not make it all that we might wish it to be....

OTOH there is that top tier.... and at that level one can do fine, not get rich but make a decent living. If one has the drive, patience, openness to learn because you never stop learning in this business...., finances to supplement the slow times, and talent anything is possible.

Hope this helps!

It took me 10 yrs to build up my business so I could support me and my wife. Don't think you can make a living at this part time. On average I spend about 60 hrs a week. The tool and material investment is not cheap and learning this trade is a lot more than doing 1 fret job. To survive in any self employed endeavor takes dedication and discipline and knowledge. There is no shortcut.

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John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

Noble thought -- bad idea, one thing I've learned over the years, we generally only make our "own" visions and dreams come to fruition. Simply look at this a little differently, no matter how well meaning, you are going to be telling him what to do --- how do you like when someone does that to you?

After setting up shop in 1975, working a regular day job with a wife and 4 children, building and repairing in the evenings and weekends, I am now full-time and enjoying almost every minute of it.
If someone wants to build & repair guitars, he or she will do it, despite not being able to make a living at it.

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https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100008907949110

I am professional builder -- been doing this about 10 years. I am FINALLY at the point where I can earn an extremely modest wage. If the economy slows down further and for some reason my waiting list declines, then I will be in a tough position.

In short, the answer to your question is no.

Your nephew is much better off learning cabinet making -- there is a decent future in that line of work.

Becoming a luthier kinda drained the musician out of me. I'd rather be building than playing though. So I chose the path I prefer. You can make money at it if you're smart and have the correct mindset. You just have to think about it as a job and be professional.

You are proposing that he takes on two very difficult to succeed career paths. It would be better if for example he would try being a rock musician while working as a computer programmer or electrician or something that helps you eat and have cloths to wear. Rock musicians and luthiers are similar in that there are so many incredibly good ones out there that will never get any recognition for their work or their art and we are all one step away from living under a bridge!

Besides being a successful luthier also means you are a successful businessman/woman. So it's never going to be a part time job. I think a young aspiring musician should go to college and get a marketable degree. Many great bands have started in college music scene's so it's a great place to get exposure. HE can also give guitar lessons which is not really a bad way to supplement an income or even make a modest living on especially if you gig on the weekends.

When I was in college I started building guitars and would come home on summer and Xmas vacations and build in my fathers modest basement workshop. After four years of doing that I had enough on my resume to start working as a tech for a local music store and then when off on my own and had repair work for up to 5 stores at one point. But some weeks would be good and others a disaster. It's good to have a plan B, least it worked for me.

I don't know much, but I do know that the folks I've seen succeed in creative fields are the ones who really, really want to be there doing what they're doing day after day and are willing to do whatever it takes to make it work. IMO this industry has plenty of room for amateurs and hobbyists (who can be the most passionate, thoughtful, and insightful members!), less room for passionate pros, and pretty much no room for part timers.

+1 on no.

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It's not what you don't know that hurts you, it's what you do know that's wrong.

double post

Not sure what to say. I'm into semi-pro photography, semi-pro digital design, amateur luthier, skilled finger style guitar player and oil painting (although I haven't painted anything in some time but I have sold everything that I ever painted).

Tough to say really, I'd say to tell him to follow his heart. This is why I am getting out of the military, sure the benefits are great, the pay is alright, but at the end of the day- I can't wait to get the hell out of there and do something that I actually enjoy. The flip side is that in all of these artistic endeavors that I have pursued, none of them offer the security and benefits of the military. I'd also say that as a naturally gifted artist- luthiery has given me fits. I am used to making things do what I want them to do. Wood is just an entirely different medium. It moves. It doesn't like to do what I want it to do. It cracks and becomes to thin. It's a pain in the a$$ and I've never been accustomed to things not doing what I want them to do creatively.

These challenges, while they can be incredibly stressful also offer me the greatest sense of pride- even though the POS I just built has many, many cosmetic errors I have never felt a greater sense of pride by clicking my shutter release on the perfect picture, assembling a 31 shot panorama of Denali Park that can be printed as large as an entire wall, animating some type of motion graphics, making the final stroke on what I considered a wonderful painting or nailing a difficult song in front of a small audience I have never smiled the way that I smiled when I completed this POS. It literally brought tears to my eyes. That's never happened to me in any other artistic medium. The sense of satisfaction in regard to accomplishment has been and likely will remain unmatched for the rest of my life.

I once wanted to be a professional luthier. However, I realized that I could not sustain my current lifestyle and would likely end up filing bankruptcy for my college debt if I was to put my amateur skills to professional use. At best, by the time I retire I hope to be able and experienced enough to do this as well as photography part-time to supplement my retirement income. I do that now to some extent but I can't live without my regular paycheck at the moment.

So instead of saying yes or no, I will ask you a couple questions. How would he be happier? Obviously only he can answer these questions and that will be your answer.

Will he be happy knowing he tried to follow his heart and his dreams? Even in failure there is much to be learned. I find that for me failure has been crucial to building resiliency and even re-building confidence that I once lost. BTW I'm awesome at failing!

What is more important? Money or a sense of pride in your work and the satisfaction of being creative? Sometimes the two can come together but in the artistic field that is not very common. This applies to being a luthier and being a musician. Maybe the answer is neither? Personally I needed the money and security so I chose a steady job that is now driving me insane. Career transition @ age 36 in progress.

Does he even have any interest in learning this trade and does he know that it's not a very great way to make money? It is very hard to compete with factory brand price points, especially with little to no advertising. 90% of guitar players have probably not heard 99% of luthiers names and probably less than 1% of the 10% that do can actually afford custom luthier built guitars.

I did not seek the job of de-facto mentor; I fell into the position in spite of myself, i.e. he's asking for my advice. Just trying to do the best I can.

To the rest of you: I cannot thank y'all enough for the overwhelmingly supportive response to my question--supportive in the sense of answering it frankly, which is the only kind of support worth receiving when answers are needed. As someone who will never be even a hobbyist luthier--I'm more the typical musician described by Clay S--I probably won't be stopping by again anytime soon, but I want to leave having expressed my sincere appreciation for the time everyone took to help me out. What a great community you've got here.

Many thanks again!

I do wish there were non building players that would hang out here. I hope we didn't all chase you off.
You are welcome to stick around, ask questions. All builders should have input from players. Most of us get caught up in our own little universes...

Haans- I believe that I qualify as a non- building player lol!

I don't build professionally. I just build for fun. But I have a couple of observations that would apply to any profession:

1) No matter what trade you look at, people will say, "there are easier ways to make a living." People here have told you to suggest your nephew become a cabinet maker. If you go to the cabinet making forums, you'll find plenty of posts in which people ask how difficult it is to make a living as a cabinet maker, and most of the responses are "extremely difficult, and there are many easier ways to make a living." If there really were an easy way to make a living, you can be confident that everyone would be doing it. Making a living at anything is hard. Suck it up and buy a helmet. You wanna be a lawyer? Seven years of higher education and a bar exam. Even then, you might not be good enough to last. Doctor? Eight years of higher education and a brutal residency. Carpenter? Work as an apprentice long enough to become a journeyman, then work full-time for four years as a journeyman before they'll even let you take the test for your contractor's license exam. There is no such thing as an "easier way to make a living." Making a living at anything requires a high level of skill that takes many years to develop. If you put in that time and develop those skills, there's a living to be made at anything. Even building guitars. People like Bob Taylor and Paul Reed Smith have proven that, even in this day and age, a guy who starts out building guitars in his garage can not only make a living, you can get rich at it. And people like Kevin Ryan have proven that you can make a good living building custom guitars on a small scale.

2) While you can earn a living at guitar building or anything else, the level of skill required to be successful is high. The reason so many people struggle to make a full-time living in guitar building, cabinet making, photography, portrait painting, etc., is that they want to make professional-quality money with amateur-quality skills. That probably sounds like a slap in the face to all the part-time builders here, and I apologize for the offense. So let's take another industry as an example.

Do you know how many Division 1 athletes believe in their heart of hearts they have what it takes to become a professional football player, if only they could get a break to prove their skills? Answer: Pretty much all of them. Do you know how many Division 1 athletes actually have what it takes to become professional football players? Well, at any point in time, there are over 10,000 athletes on a roster of a Division 1 football team, and yet less than 225 of those athletes get drafted each year. A few more make it as undrafted free agents, for a total of less than 300/year. That's less than 3% that even get a shot at the pros. And after these individuals have practiced and trained since they were in middle school, and they are one of the fortunate ones to make a roster, the majority will barely make a low-six-figure salary for a year or two before getting cut, and many never play a down.

If you want to know why, go watch an old episode of the show "Pros vs. Joes." Check out the one featuring Rocket Ismail, who had retired many years before the show. The contestants were all former Division 1 football players. The challenge was that there were a bunch of cones set up on the football field, I think at about the 25 or 30 yard line. Rocket Ismail had to run back-and-forth around the cones and then into the end zone. He couldn't go whatever direction he wanted; he specifically had to follow the cones. The contestant could line up anywhere he wanted, and his job was to tackle Rocket Ismail anywhere on the field before Ismail scored a touchdown. Each contestant got three chances. Even though Ismail had to run a pre-determined pattern, and everyone knew exactly where he was going, not one of these former D1 players was able to tackle Ismail even once. Ismail scored every time. He made all these former D1 players look like bumbling idiots.

In any field, the difference between being a professional and being an amateur is shocking. Music is another example. Every twenty-year-old kid with a Martin and a microphone thinks they have what it takes to be a star, if only they could get their big break. But being a star is not as much about luck as most wanna-be musicians would think. There really is a completely different level of talent out there. Take a listen to Foreigner's acoustic version of Jukebox Hero.

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=fo ... 1229136955

Now, I don't even like the song Jukebox Hero. And it isn't complicated. Anyone with a few music lessons under their belt could play it. Anyone with a music degree could make it sound really good. But when you hear something like that video, it makes you realize there's a completely different level of skill out there.

Now, I know what you're thinking: My nephew isn't trying to be the Joe Montana or the Jimi Hendrix of guitar-building. He just wants to make a living. Fair enough. But in fairness, you are talking about a field in which lots of people do it for nothing because they enjoy it, same as sports and music. In those types of fields, you have to be spectacular to make a living, because there are too many unspectacular people willing to do it "at cost."

I think about this every time I go to a show like Healdsburg. I'm always amazed at the quality of all the instruments that are there. And I'm even more amazed that the vast majority of the builders are part-time. Or their spouses work. Only a tiny percentage of the exhibitors are full-time builders who are actually able to support their family by building guitars. But then I see Kevin Ryan's guitars, and I realize that some people really are building guitars at a completely different level than the rest of us.

Being honest about the quality of our work is difficult. If we build a very good guitar that plays great, sounds great, and looks great, we have every right to brag and show off. Just like being a starting linebacker for a national champion college football team. But that's still not enough to make a living. To make a living at something others are willing to do "at cost," you have to be spectacular. And it can be hard for people to admit that they aren't in that league. (Until you pick up one of Kevin Ryan's guitars. Then it's easy to admit.) Many people here say the standard you should set for when you should sell your instruments is, "can I build a guitar that is at least as good as a Martin?" That's a fair standard when you are thinking about whether you can sell one. But when you're talking about making a living at it, the fairer question is, "can I build a guitar that is at least close to the same quality as the guitars being built by Kevin Ryan and the other select luthiers that are actually making a living at this?"

3) Anytime you're making a product for a living, efficiency is just as important to your livelihood as quality. If you only build 10-12 guitars a year, I don't see any way for you to survive. Median household income in the US in 2013 was $52,000. If you can sell your guitars for $4k each, and it costs you only $1250 in materials and overhead for each guitar, you need to build and sell 19 guitars per year to hit that median. That's a lot of guitars. Any successful manufacturing business requires a substantial investment (of both time and money) in your machinery, tooling, and jigs.

This post has already dragged on too long, so I'll stop here. The bottom line is that there is a big difference between being an amateur and being a pro, at anything. It's more than just "hanging out your shingle." Many people build great guitars and even sell some, but making a living at it requires a different kind of discussion.

Wow, you wrote a book! More important, you managed to relate it to sports!
Frankly, there as so many holes in your reasoning that it's hard to know where to start.
A few points. Ryan, Taylor (?), whomever, are the few at the top. You can always go to 'Ealdsburg and see the cream of the crop. Same with your beloved footballers. They are the ones on TV. Most professional builders can't afford that kind of advertising every year or other year or whatever.
Try and sell 20 guitars in a year...He!!, try and build 20. You have just turned yourself into a factory. That amount of automation costs bucks bigtime. If you are doing it by yourself, you will be dead soon.
Some of us recommended cabinetmaking because there are actually jobs out there for cabinetmakers. Same thing with carpenters, lawyers, pick your profession. Now try to find a job as a builder of instruments...good luck.
I have been a professional instrument maker for over 25 years. I still build instruments professionally, but am "retired". This profession is no picnic. There is a lot more involved than your professional $$$ for an amateur's skill. Many builders are at a professional level but kept down by your lovely "market forces" (short for scam and BS). As you freely admit to being an amateur, you might consider not trying to equate the professional end to other professions. You know nothing about it.
I'll say it again. It's an avocation...once it becomes profitable, it's a bidness. That's when creativity goes down the drain.

Most of the "cabinet making" jobs in today's world are just slightly glorified millwork jobs. Mass produced MDF parts assembled with knockdown hardware does not equate to custom cabinetry any more than stringing a guitar does to lutherie.
The number of true cabinet makers is in decline in relation to the rise of factory made Ikea type furniture. People want their furniture now, not six weeks from now, plus they wan't it cheap. I've pretty much stopped building furniture, except for repeat customers, and mostly just do custom kitchens. I know quite a few cabinet makers that went from working like crazy to more or less nothing in the last ten years. Thats my take on it, anyways. Others may have different results and experiences!

Alex

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"Indecision is the key to flexibility" .... Bumper sticker

Hans, despite the rudeness of some of your comments, I'll keep this respectful.

First, as for your comment that I "know nothing about it": You have no idea what I do and do not know. Don't pretend you do. Condescension is rarely productive.

Second, I believe this thread was about making a living at guitar-building, which is different than simply doing it professionally. Many builders sell some of their guitars, which technically makes them professionals. But that is not the same thing as making enough at it to feed your family/put your kids through college without a pension, second job or a spouse who works. Keeping that distinction in mind, I would be curious about the following, if you're willing to share:

1) You've been building professionally for 25 years; how many of those years would you say you earned enough at it to provide comfortably for your family without you or your spouse having other income? You make some wonderful instruments, and you've clearly had a lot of success. But I think I and many others here believe (perhaps wrongly) that, for all but those at the very top of the game, even a successful builder needs an additional source of income to make a decent living and support a family. I would be eager to hear if your experience is to the contrary.

2) What level of automation do you think is necessary to build 20 instruments per year, and how much of an investment do you think is necessary to get that kind of equipment? I'm interested to hear because it sounds like your views may be different than builders I have spoken with who do build 20 instruments per year, some with automation and some without.

Thanks for your insights.