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 Post subject: Re: Gibson?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 21, 2019 10:28 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Sun Mar 30, 2008 8:20 am
Posts: 5968
Hesh wrote:
"Cool guitar just not something that would be economically feasible for a commercial business unless they have lots of time with nothing to do."

The nice thing about being an amateur luthier is we no longer need to work for peanuts... we can work for peanut shells. laughing6-hehe
Still we need to limit liability, which is why I only work on my own basket cases.


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 Post subject: Re: Gibson?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 21, 2019 10:34 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood
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Joined: Mon Dec 27, 2010 9:06 pm
Posts: 2739
Location: Magnolia DE
First name: Brian
Last Name: Howard
City: Magnolia
State: Delaware
Zip/Postal Code: 19962
Country: United States
Focus: Repair
Status: Professional
Woodie G wrote:
I'm not certain how other areas of the country are, but employee guitars are relatively common here...perhaps I am just very fortunate in my associations, but I have seen an even dozen thus far in just under four year's time. The shop where I work is about a 90 minute drive from the PRS factory in Stevensonville, MD, so most of what we see are PRS employee guitars - usually once or twice a year, either as a result of the employee gifting the guitars to family or close friends or a sale of the guitar to a third party. My recollection is that a full-time PRS employee may have a guitar built for the cost of materials after two years of good service, and every two years thereafter, with some significant restrictions on choices of materials, inlay, and furnishings (e.g., no Private Stock BRW, etc.).

These instruments are labeled 'EMPLOYEE GUITAR CUSTOM BUILT FOR (Name of Employee), carry a PRS serial number and Mr. Smith's signature, and may or may not carry a PRS logo. If you visit the PRS web site and review the 'Careers with PRS' section for the employee benefits, you will find the following noted under the Employment Benefits section:

Quote:
- 401k plan with match
- Paid Time Off (PTO)
- Employee guitars and discounts on PRS gear and apparel


I have been to PRS many times myself and know the people who started his acoustic program years back.

Employee guitars are gifts..... not made by the individual employee. After 5 years of service you can order an SE for free as your bonus or employee guitar. At 25 years you get a custom shop piece of your liking. But if you have any hands on it is when the parts cross your workstation. That is the way it works at PRS.

If you search for 'employee guitar(s) PRS' and other manufacturers, the AGF, UMGF, The Gear Page, TDPRI, and other enthusiast sites should offer more in the way of details. I doubt Martin and Gibson's employee guitar programs were or are as formalized, but we do get guitars in now and again with origin claims in the Martin or Gibson factories as employee projects.

Finally, here is a link to the PRS web site story on the charity auction of an employee guitar:

https://www.prsguitars.com/blog/post/michael_reids_harpy_guitar_charity_auction


I have been to PRS many times myself and know the people who started his acoustic program years back.

Employee guitars are gifts..... not made by the individual employee. After 5 years of service you can order an SE for free as your bonus or employee guitar. At 25 years you get a custom shop piece of your liking. But if you have any hands on it is when the parts cross your workstation. That is the way it works at PRS. They will even tell you this on the factory tour if you listen.....

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Brian

You never know what you are capable of until you actually try.

https://www.howardguitarsdelaware.com/


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 Post subject: Re: Gibson?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 21, 2019 10:45 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood
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Joined: Mon Dec 27, 2010 9:06 pm
Posts: 2739
Location: Magnolia DE
First name: Brian
Last Name: Howard
City: Magnolia
State: Delaware
Zip/Postal Code: 19962
Country: United States
Focus: Repair
Status: Professional
Rocky Road wrote:
B. Howard wrote:
Rocky Road wrote:
Mr Howard. I pulled one of the tuners off and did not see any sign of different tuners having been installed.

Get new glasses cause I can see the marks left by the original tuners in the lacquer at the bottom of every one in the first pic....

Brian. I did go back and saw the imprints of different tuners under the Kluson style that is on there. It’s not the glasses. It’s the guy wearing them. Thanks


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I wasn't trying to be abrasive, sometimes I come off that way.....

But if you are going to add restoration to your business model you are going to need to up your game on spotting details. From what I see the entire assumption this guitar had anything to do with big G was the marks on the tuners which should have been immediately spotted as non original. Missing things like this will almost always lead to problems. Someone may commit to repairs of a certain price point upon hearing the instrument was brand A and then when they find out it is brand X afterwards...... I don't want to be on your side of that encounter.

Another potential miss in the same area is that the headstock definitely looks to have been refinished at least with the black. I can't say about the rest of the finish without seeing it in person but the body does not look to be refinished. But the original makers mark may be buried under a new coat or 5 of black. I have seen that many times, even with a "G" logo in gold over the new black.....

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Brian

You never know what you are capable of until you actually try.

https://www.howardguitarsdelaware.com/


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 Post subject: Re: Gibson?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 21, 2019 11:57 am 
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Cocobolo
Cocobolo

Joined: Tue Nov 24, 2015 8:33 pm
Posts: 169
First name: David
Last Name: Riedmiller
State: WI
Country: United States
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
B. Howard wrote:
Rocky Road wrote:
B. Howard wrote:
[quote="Rocky Road"]Mr Howard. I pulled one of the tuners off and did not see any sign of different tuners having been installed.

Get new glasses cause I can see the marks left by the original tuners in the lacquer at the bottom of every one in the first pic....

Brian. I did go back and saw the imprints of different tuners under the Kluson style that is on there. It’s not the glasses. It’s the guy wearing them. Thanks


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I wasn't trying to be abrasive, sometimes I come off that way.....

But if you are going to add restoration to your business model you are going to need to up your game on spotting details. From what I see the entire assumption this guitar had anything to do with big G was the marks on the tuners which should have been immediately spotted as non original. Missing things like this will almost always lead to problems. Someone may commit to repairs of a certain price point upon hearing the instrument was brand A and then when they find out it is brand X afterwards...... I don't want to be on your side of that encounter.

Another potential miss in the same area is that the headstock definitely looks to have been refinished at least with the black. I can't say about the rest of the finish without seeing it in person but the body does not look to be refinished. But the original makers mark may be buried under a new coat or 5 of black. I have seen that many times, even with a "G" logo in gold over the new black.....[/quote]


The owner of this Gibson? Looking guitar said he had taken it to a large guitar shop based in LaCrosse WI. They said that it might be a Gibson possibly a Washburn.
In other words they didn’t know.
A quick search on the web showed it to be very similar to an LG-0 or 1.
But shouldn’t there be a serial number found somewhere if it is a Gibson?
I would not consider getting into restoration work without schooling. Repair and restoration are related but share different outcomes.
Where would a serial number be located, if indeed Gibson always assigned numbers to each guitar?
I value your advice, Brian , as well as all the input given here.


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_________________
"It is easier to fool a man, than it is to convince him that he has been fooled"
Mark Twain


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 Post subject: Re: Gibson?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 21, 2019 2:52 pm 
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Koa
Koa
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Joined: Sat Jan 19, 2013 7:33 am
Posts: 1876
First name: Willard
Last Name: Guthrie
City: Cumberland
State: Maryland 21502
Zip/Postal Code: 21502
Country: United State
Focus: Repair
Status: Semi-pro
B. Howard wrote:
Woodie G wrote:
I'm not certain how other areas of the country are, but employee guitars are relatively common here...perhaps I am just very fortunate in my associations, but I have seen an even dozen thus far in just under four year's time. The shop where I work is about a 90 minute drive from the PRS factory in Stevensonville, MD, so most of what we see are PRS employee guitars - usually once or twice a year, either as a result of the employee gifting the guitars to family or close friends or a sale of the guitar to a third party. My recollection is that a full-time PRS employee may have a guitar built for the cost of materials after two years of good service, and every two years thereafter, with some significant restrictions on choices of materials, inlay, and furnishings (e.g., no Private Stock BRW, etc.).

These instruments are labeled 'EMPLOYEE GUITAR CUSTOM BUILT FOR (Name of Employee), carry a PRS serial number and Mr. Smith's signature, and may or may not carry a PRS logo. If you visit the PRS web site and review the 'Careers with PRS' section for the employee benefits, you will find the following noted under the Employment Benefits section:

Quote:
- 401k plan with match
- Paid Time Off (PTO)
- Employee guitars and discounts on PRS gear and apparel


I have been to PRS many times myself and know the people who started his acoustic program years back.

Employee guitars are gifts..... not made by the individual employee. After 5 years of service you can order an SE for free as your bonus or employee guitar. At 25 years you get a custom shop piece of your liking. But if you have any hands on it is when the parts cross your workstation. That is the way it works at PRS.

If you search for 'employee guitar(s) PRS' and other manufacturers, the AGF, UMGF, The Gear Page, TDPRI, and other enthusiast sites should offer more in the way of details. I doubt Martin and Gibson's employee guitar programs were or are as formalized, but we do get guitars in now and again with origin claims in the Martin or Gibson factories as employee projects.

Finally, here is a link to the PRS web site story on the charity auction of an employee guitar:

https://www.prsguitars.com/blog/post/michael_reids_harpy_guitar_charity_auction


I have been to PRS many times myself and know the people who started his acoustic program years back.

Employee guitars are gifts..... not made by the individual employee. After 5 years of service you can order an SE for free as your bonus or employee guitar. At 25 years you get a custom shop piece of your liking. But if you have any hands on it is when the parts cross your workstation. That is the way it works at PRS. They will even tell you this on the factory tour if you listen.....


Mr. Morelli's most recent 12 fret 42-Style dreadnaught was built with a set of salvaged Martin sides (miss-bent and discarded back in the late 1960's; straightened and rebent) and a pretty well matched back sourced by one of the acoustic staff at PRS, so we stay in touch with them as well. A few years ago, PRS gave Angelus SE's as holiday gifts in lieu of bonuses...the sudden glut of bargain-priced Angelus SE's offered on Craigslist just before Christmas was probably a total coincidence. Fairly certain most of the employees would have preferred to avoid the added tax burden versus receiving the guitar.

I'd still recommend doing some research on Martin and Gibson employee guitars...it was a thing, although as you suggested, modern inventory control makes the equivalent of Mr. Cash's 'One Piece at a Time' a little less likely.

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For the times they are a changin'

- Bob Dylan


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 Post subject: Re: Gibson?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 21, 2019 3:13 pm 
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Old Growth Brazilian Rosewood
Old Growth Brazilian Rosewood
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Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2007 9:49 am
Posts: 13388
Location: Ann Arbor, Michigan
First name: Hesh
Last Name: Breakstone
City: Ann Arbor
State: Michigan
Country: United States
Status: Professional
You know if that guitar is not a G*bson we need to dig up Washburn or whomever made it so that the new 2019 reorganized and broke G*bson can sue them.


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 Post subject: Re: Gibson?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 21, 2019 8:47 pm 
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Contributing Member
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Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2013 4:58 pm
Posts: 1449
First name: Ed
Last Name: Minch
City: Chestertown
State: MD
Zip/Postal Code: 21620
Country: United States
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
I live just 30 minutes from the PRS plant in Stevensville MD, right at the Eastern Shore end of the long Annapolis Bay Bridge. I have a friend who recently left there after 9 years. New employees have to sand for about 2 years, at which point my friend got a bottom-of-the line guitar off the assembly line. I think it was 3 years later - but that might be flexible - he got a middle-of-the-line guitar off the assembly line. At perhaps 3 years after that, he got to pick all of the features of the guitar and had one totally custom made. It is a beaut.

I don't play electric so I just strummed the fancy one a bit without having it plugged in.

Ed


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 Post subject: Re: Gibson?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 21, 2019 10:30 pm 
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Cocobolo
Cocobolo

Joined: Tue Nov 24, 2015 8:33 pm
Posts: 169
First name: David
Last Name: Riedmiller
State: WI
Country: United States
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Another thing I had noticed initially when I was looking at the Gibson? are stress cracks on both waists looks very much like surface cracks from improper bending technique.
Employee built using cast off sides from the dust bin?


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_________________
"It is easier to fool a man, than it is to convince him that he has been fooled"
Mark Twain


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 Post subject: Re: Gibson?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 22, 2019 12:19 pm 
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Old Growth Brazilian Rosewood
Old Growth Brazilian Rosewood
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Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2007 9:49 am
Posts: 13388
Location: Ann Arbor, Michigan
First name: Hesh
Last Name: Breakstone
City: Ann Arbor
State: Michigan
Country: United States
Status: Professional
Rocky Road wrote:
Another thing I had noticed initially when I was looking at the Gibson? are stress cracks on both waists looks very much like surface cracks from improper bending technique.
Employee built using cast off sides from the dust bin?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Maybe and good observation on your part. I don't see these kinds of cracks resulting from poor care or RH so you may be spot-on my friend.

Guitar forensics are pretty cool and we enjoy this kind of thing a great deal. It's also been said that there is no better education or proving ground for prospective builders than having exposure to and experience with why and how guitars fail.


Last edited by Hesh on Sat Jun 22, 2019 9:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.


These users thanked the author Hesh for the post: Rocky Road (Sat Jun 22, 2019 3:26 pm)
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 Post subject: Re: Gibson?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 22, 2019 6:08 pm 
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Koa
Koa
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Joined: Sat Jan 19, 2013 7:33 am
Posts: 1876
First name: Willard
Last Name: Guthrie
City: Cumberland
State: Maryland 21502
Zip/Postal Code: 21502
Country: United State
Focus: Repair
Status: Semi-pro
I'll agree with Mr. Breakstone - the very best reason for a luthier interested in building to invest the time in repair work is to see how NOT to do things. The most troublesome custom guitars we see seem to have been built by those that have done little else BUT build, while those builders with a solid background in repair work appear to eschew the sort of design and construction practices prone to produce visits to the repair shop.

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For the times they are a changin'

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