Official Luthiers Forum!

Thanks Alan glad that it makes sense to you.

What's most important here is not exactly how low we take nut slots but the idea of doing a set-up in a sequential order in which each element that gets addressed can be refined and will not have to be revisited again. Or, in other words we are isolating the variables one at a time and addressing them in isolation.

Of course then the client leaves the thing in a the trunk of a hot car for a week and wraps the neck....

If you ever get out this way Alan stop by and I will be happy to give you a tour and if you want show you how I do my set-ups.

EDIT: I see now after reading what others said I am being redundant...



It will! But if you lower the action so much at the saddle that you now have buzzing it's not because the nut slots are too low it's becasue the saddle is

Same as any fret. If you put a capo on the 3rd fret then the 3rd fret is now the 'nut.' so that proverbial nut slots are exactly the same height as the fret in front of it which is more or less what a real bone nut should be doing. So now in the hypothetical capo scenario you lower the saddle and sure enough you are lowering the string height at the 4th fret too but if you go so low that it buzzes it's not the fault of the height at the 3rd fret, the capo 'nut.'

I used to think this way for 25 years till someone on another forum pointed it out to me and the light bulb went off in my head.. It don't matter if you do the nut first or last if your goal is to get the nut slots the exact same height as the fret in front of it.

Thank you, Hesh.
I doubt I'll be swinging by your shop,
pretty far away, and mighty cold too!
I build lap steels only, now, so 1/4" is string height at the nut.
Just got to make the top of the strings dead flat, so the bar contacts the strings evenly.
So easy, and no dealing with fussy players, who drive me crazy anyway.
Sorry about my little tizzy fit earlier.
Alan

Well the goal is not to get the nut slots at the same height as the other frets, that would not be a well cut nut.

Our students may remember their half pencil that I made and gave them (cheap bastage that I am I only gave our students half a pencil... ) and how we marked the fret height on their nuts (it should have washed off by now).... . But seriously we marked a line on the nut face and then properly cut the nut slots. some of the slots came in below the line, some on it or near it and some over it depending on the string.

Regarding what gets done first I don't have to revisit my nuts... after addressing them initially after setting the neck relief. what ever I do to the saddles has zero bearing on a properly cut nut slot.

Conversely if I adjust action with the saddles first and then have to cut a nut slot way down as is often if not usually the case that string is likely too low now acton wise and the action will have to be raised at the saddles. That's twice the time with the saddles and a waste of time.

My world is different than most folks here. I'm looking to produce every hour at least one completed set-up meaning all the adjustments are done, the guitar is cleaned, the electronics are cleaned and if need be things touched up, jack tightened, a cold solder joint redone because we didn't like the looks of it, and the set-up is perfect where the instrument plays in tune everywhere with no buzzing.

My approach is systematic and sequential. Every tool I grab and the order that I grab or select that tool is with the intention that before ole Hesh here puts that tool back down or away in my case I've used it on every appropriate thing on that instrument that may benefit from the use of that tool. I literally go from the tip of the head stock through the entire guitar with eyes and hands on every inch in the process.

Even small things like a scratch or white paint from a wall I might remove because I'm good and fast and experienced at it and I can throw that in with very little time spent on it and make someone even happier. We often fix things that were not pointed out to us because it's just the right thing to do.

I approach the valuable personal property of others as if it was and is my own and I sincerely want them to be absolutely thrilled with my work and grinning like idiots when I see them play their ax.

Anyway this is my goal in an hour or less then it's "next" and so on and so forth. I don't feel well today had some minor surgery Monday... but I'm going to work and by noon will have done four guitars at least. If my technique and the "sequential" nature of my approach was not what it is I would not be capable of doing this level of production in this amount of time. We are busy enough that most folks who may even work in the trade have not seen a shop doing the volume that we do.

Anyway that's why it's important to me to not have to back track or address the same things more than once. There is no need to ever do that with set-ups unless you miss the mark initially and want to tweak something later such as neck relief.

Lastly it is often the case that no matter what the complaint, no matter what is wrong with the instrument it really doesn't matter to us in that our set-ups are a catch all for all manner of things. Kind of like fishing with a net. We will encounter a bad neck angle or whatever along the way because of the comprehensive and sequential nature of how we approach the work. It's all good and still great fun and one hell of a nice retirement gig too I'll add.

there are a few things being discussed. Lets make it simple.

there is a difference in doing a set up on an existing guitar and doing an initial set up.

On an existing or should I saw a guitar that had strings on it.

A check the frets and level the high frets
B adjust neck relief

C check nut slot clearance . You can use a straight edge from fret 2 to nut.
This can be a long topic of discussion but just follow for a bit
D measure height at 12th fret.
I do this using a straight edge from 1 to saddle Yes I measure at the 12

once strung up make make your saddle adjustment if needed.

To know how much clearance you actually have take a .009 electric string and see if you can slide it under the string
and if it touches the string.
that tells you how far your slot is above the fret.

I try for about.007

an a brand new guitar same thing
but we will know that the nut will need adjustment.
using the string helps to determine how far you can go.

If you do the nut slot first and your saddle and relief are not set , your nut may not work.

we all have our trade secret tricks.
not everyone is wrong if it works

_________________
John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

In many cases, if not most I will make the string slots on the bass side actually higher. The open strings often time take a beating and it's nice for them to be buzz free. But it depends on the player. In theory though I go for the string height at the nut to be just like any other fret. Good clearance for open string pounding. I saw what you wrote earlier and I will even do this too sometimes, lower the treble strings down even farther, you always want to hear that 'tink' but you can start to push it further.

The half pencil trick is something I've been using for almost 30 years now and I find that you always go lower then the mark to take up the bend of the string as it exits the nut. But right at that point I like it to be the same as the frets.

So, John, you use a .009 string as a feeler gauge between the 1st fret and the string?
Alan

yes I do
there is a variable here in that not all necks will flex in the same way.
I made a step gauge when I do a nut from a feeler gauge that has a .007 notch on it. This is long enough to rest on
frets 1 and 2.
So when I do an initial set up or nut replacement , I can use the gauge to get me in the ball park. Once strung up I can now see the actual flex in the neck and make adjustments accordingly.
So in my case the .009 feeler gauge lets me know when I am getting close. On a hard flat picker I am not do more that that depending on how the player likes the feel. I don't like to go too low but al least with this .009 I know I can visually see the gap when I fret 3 and see the gap over the first fret.
There are some variable in that we can say Neck flex and also the fret job. The better you prep the board the better you can get a good fret level and fret job.
You can get pretty low action if you take the time to go through each stage of the process.
It comes with experience and practice.

_________________
John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

I suppose my earlier post was a bit confusing when I basically said the nut was just another fret - I said that in order to explain why the saddle could change after the nut was set without having to go back and rework the nut. I should have added "Of course there's more to it" and that is what Hesh has been explaining. The exact heights of the nut slots are going to be different than "just another fret" because the strings are not infinitely flexible and they approach the nut at a different angle than they approach the other frets. Sorry if, in my attempt to clarify, I have muddied the waters.

And I agree with John and the others in that there is more than one method to get the job done. I like the method I learned from Dave and Hesh because it is a repeatable, sequential process that is fast and produces reliable results.

Hesh, I still have that 1/2 pencil but gotta say I've really gotten a lot of use out of the brass string lifter Dave made for us, I really like that one.

_________________
Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

Thank you, John.
Alan

I can’t speak for everyone but that is what I understood you to be saying inasmuch as a thought experiment where you view the nut as a zero fret or capoed fret and what that would need (or not need) after saddle height adjustment.

I’m always taken by how many different ways there are to accomplish the various tasks in this craft. It is important to remember that there are different ways to get there, and some may work better for others. That is why I feel that discussions like this are so important. Learning a process and following it to success is great but comparing, contrasting and discussing details can really help people understand the concepts on a deeper level.

_________________
Bryan Bear PMoMC

Take care of your feet, and your feet will take care of you.

The only thing that I use a half pencil for when I work on guitars these days is to scribe/draw a line indicating fret height and then imagine half the string diameters and draw a second line half the respective string diameters above the half pencil line. Then it's off to the merry belt sander that was Dan Earlywine's Dad's and I remove material off the nut top to near that second line. I don't go to the line because I will still be using files and sand paper and I want to sneak up on my nut height so that it's all nice and shiny and scratchless when complete and the slots are deep enough.

But the line that we show our students that results from the half pencil is purely academic in nature and use because again if any of the strings end up at that line it's coincidence and not by design.

Great posts Steve and glad to see that you got some real value from your time with us. The string lifers are killer and I would not be without them.

Hey Hesh. the original picture of that string lifter has disappeared , and chance you could put one up?

_________________
The name catgut is confusing. There are two explanations for the mix up.

Catgut is an abbreviation of the word cattle gut. Gut strings are made from sheep or goat intestines, in the past even from horse, mule or donkey intestines.

Otherwise it could be from the word kitgut or kitstring. Kit meant fiddle, not kitten.

Sure thing Colin - I'm home today so not in the shop and I don't have a lifter here (sadly) but I'll take a pic of mine tomorrow and post it.

Hesh wrote:
"My world is different than most folks here. I'm looking to produce every hour at least one completed set-up meaning all the adjustments are done, the guitar is cleaned, the electronics are cleaned and if need be things touched up, jack tightened, a cold solder joint redone because we didn't like the looks of it, and the set-up is perfect where the instrument plays in tune everywhere with no buzzing.

My approach is systematic and sequential. Every tool I grab and the order that I grab or select that tool is with the intention that before ole Hesh here puts that tool back down or away in my case I've used it on every appropriate thing on that instrument that may benefit from the use of that tool. I literally go from the tip of the head stock through the entire guitar with eyes and hands on every inch in the process.

Even small things like a scratch or white paint from a wall I might remove because I'm good and fast and experienced at it and I can throw that in with very little time spent on it and make someone even happier. We often fix things that were not pointed out to us because it's just the right thing to do.

I approach the valuable personal property of others as if it was and is my own and I sincerely want them to be absolutely thrilled with my work and grinning like idiots when I see them play their ax.

Anyway this is my goal in an hour or less then it's "next" and so on and so forth. I don't feel well today had some minor surgery Monday... but I'm going to work and by noon will have done four guitars at least. If my technique and the "sequential" nature of my approach was not what it is I would not be capable of doing this level of production in this amount of time. We are busy enough that most folks who may even work in the trade have not seen a shop doing the volume that we do.

Anyway that's why it's important to me to not have to back track or address the same things more than once. There is no need to ever do that with set-ups unless you miss the mark initially and want to tweak something later such as neck relief.

Lastly it is often the case that no matter what the complaint, no matter what is wrong with the instrument it really doesn't matter to us in that our set-ups are a catch all for all manner of things. Kind of like fishing with a net. We will encounter a bad neck angle or whatever along the way because of the comprehensive and sequential nature of how we approach the work. It's all good and still great fun and one hell of a nice retirement gig too I'll add."



That would make a really good You Tube video. Seeing the way a professional does things is so much more informative than the videos where people are "puttering" in their workshop.

Hi Hesh,


I got a lot of good tips/methods from this thread-especially how low one can go on the E and B string. I have been sneaking up on that for a while and was always afraid to go that low.....

As far as how much of the string is in the groove-My goal is to have the E and B fully in the groove and all the wound strings 1/3 in the groove. Is this what you go for?

Hey Brad hope that you are doing great and thanks for letting me know that you are benefitting from some of the sharing here.

Yeah nut slots can go WAY lower than anyone here ever describes except what I am sharing. Many of the techniques offered describe slots that are just way too high and would not be acceptable as professional quality work.

Regarding how much string is exposed. Dave and I are personal friends with Dan E. and we believe that he's who started this 1/2 the string proud of the slot reference. We don't agree and both of us as well as many good players can rip an E or B string right out of a 1/2 string proud slot depth in the normal course of string bending. That's not good.

You have to know we love Dan too so let that be said .

Anyway so I would not worry about this at all. What's most important is that the strings have the nut slots cut very low for ease of playing AND to reduce any tendency for fretted notes in the first several fret positions to go sharp when fretted.

Now when I make a new nut I will take excess nut material off the top of the nut and I do this WITH the strings on and tuned to pitch. I file until I am hitting the strings with the file and sacrifice the strings used for the set-up (we usually use the existing strings for nut making not intonation adjustments). This makes the string depth on nuts we make around the diameter of the respective strings. You can see here as well this is twice the strings in the slot that the ole 1/2 string proud thing offered.

On an existing guitar that I am setting up I simply cut the slots as they should be cut with zero concern for how deep the slot will turn out. If excess material or a sharp nut corner is an issue I might file it back but I will also charge the client as my level of involvement increases in now not only cutting nut slots but reshaping the nut.

In summary don't worry about how much string is in the slot it's far more important to have the slots low for playability and intonation. If nut slot depth and nut height is an issue reshape but keep most of the string if not all of it in the slots.

As promised for Colin and anyone else who may benefit.

That's a lot less refined than I was expecting. This is NOT an insult at all. I guess I was just expecting to see something engineered like the saddle routing system

Simple tools like this are awesome. I keep wishing I had something better to lift the strings out but I do set-up so infrequently, it is only on my mind when I want one so I never get around to making something. I should make one and put it in with my nut files and replace my current tool (which is whatever scrap of something that is within reach when I remember I need one).

_________________
Bryan Bear PMoMC

Take care of your feet, and your feet will take care of you.

Bryan, make one. You'll be glad you did.

_________________
Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

This one is 17 years old and has lifted likely over 50,000 strings in our very busy shop. This one is mine, there are many more like it but this one is mine. Got that from Full Metal Jacket.

Dave makes these so don't ask me how he does it and he's too busy, so am I to really participate here much these days.

There are prettier ones that the many OLFers who took our classes when we were still offering them have and that we made and gave to them. Please feel free to post pics of those too everyone.

Refinement is not what makes this thing important. It simply works very well and if you look closely you will see form following function AND not having any sharp edges that we can jam in a guitar when we don't want to do so.

Mine is in my left hand most of the time I am cutting nut slots and the appropriate file is in my right hand. The string is lifted, the slot cut some, string replaced, it's worked in the slot to make sure the string is seated and the string is pulsed over the first fret crown to see my progress. Repeat until it's good and then.........................next and moving on to the next string.

For folks who work in the trade these are great for slotting saddles on electrics, banjos, mandos etc. They are also great to move string out of the way with lousy Floyd and Kayler bridges.

With the possible exception of my 6" engineer's scale this little tool likely has been in my hand more than any other Luthier tool I've ever used and it's also responsible for helping me earn my living. Kind of funny that the simplest things become what we use and depend on the very most.

They are made of sheet brass folded over on itself and soldered. I'll try to remember to take some photos/measurements of mine and post it separately for anyone who may want to make one.

_________________
Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

Then anyone here? Really? I guess us dummies here are in good hands with John Hall, Arnold and Howard to name a few. I mean what do they know?

Fair point that was overly broad and harsh, I apologize to anyone and everyone that this statement may have offended. There was zero intent to call anyone names nor did I call anyone names that's JF Mckenna's assertion and it's inaccurate.

We do take nut slots lower than I've ever seen anyone else here describe. That's the intended point that we go very low with them.