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Hesh
PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2023 12:53 pm 
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banjopicks wrote:
Hesh wrote:
With this said the cloth patch we see far more frequently in vintage instruments may have the intended purpose of being flexible and may help produce a more efficient instrument if volume is the desired measure.

I never went to cloth but had I continued to build I might have. My last caps were only around .010" thick and tapered to nothing about 3/4" from the intersection but even still they made that junction super rigid and I always wanted to try to loosen that up and see what resulted.


Maybe no glue or reinforcement at all for that joint would be best. It aint going nowhere.


It would be worth a try but I wouldn't want to be the one to try it.... :) But you're right Hutch this would help the X intersection have some flex that may be a good thing.


These users thanked the author Hesh for the post (total 2): banjopicks (Fri Sep 22, 2023 6:07 am) • bcombs510 (Thu Sep 21, 2023 2:07 pm)
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Bryan Bear
PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2023 1:30 pm 
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banjopicks wrote:
Unless you are like Karl and want your braces vertical and parallel.


I just taper the sides so no one can tell if they aren't vertically parallel :)

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These users thanked the author Bryan Bear for the post (total 2): Pmaj7 (Fri Sep 22, 2023 9:59 am) • bcombs510 (Thu Sep 21, 2023 1:42 pm)
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banjopicks
PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2023 6:11 am 
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Hesh wrote:
banjopicks wrote:
Hesh wrote:
With this said the cloth patch we see far more frequently in vintage instruments may have the intended purpose of being flexible and may help produce a more efficient instrument if volume is the desired measure.

I never went to cloth but had I continued to build I might have. My last caps were only around .010" thick and tapered to nothing about 3/4" from the intersection but even still they made that junction super rigid and I always wanted to try to loosen that up and see what resulted.


Maybe no glue or reinforcement at all for that joint would be best. It aint going nowhere.


It would be worth a try but I wouldn't want to be the one to try it.... :) But you're right Hutch this would help the X intersection have some flex that may be a good thing.


I don't mind being the guinea pig. I forgot to glue both of my guitars I'm working on so there. I may as well run with it. What's the worst that can happen?

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DennisK
PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2023 7:23 am 
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Hesh wrote:
Some food for thought on a related topic. We've seen a cloth patch as Gibson used on the X intersection and we see others cap it and some with substantial caps.

Because of the full height intersection of the X-legs in this area of the top it's stiff as can be and that, in my way of thinking may not be the goal. As I've said before we are not building ottomans we are building structures that are supposed to be capable of moving and more specifically pumping.

With this said the cloth patch we see far more frequently in vintage instruments may have the intended purpose of being flexible and may help produce a more efficient instrument if volume is the desired measure.

I never went to cloth but had I continued to build I might have. My last caps were only around .010" thick and tapered to nothing about 3/4" from the intersection but even still they made that junction super rigid and I always wanted to try to loosen that up and see what resulted.

Another option I've considered is scalloping the intersection before gluing the cap. Retain the high stiffness to weight ratio of the lap joint without making the intersection area excessively stiff. It's also more symmetrical than the cloth joint, where one half of the X has continuous grain and the other is interrupted.

Not that symmetry is necessarily a good thing. Here's another fun idea, replacing two quadrants of the X pattern with a semicircular brace. Eliminates the 4-way intersection, and the long brace becomes a sort of fulcrum to create a strong asymmetric diagonal dipole.


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banjopicks
PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2023 9:10 am 
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Interesting combo of falcate and standard bracing. For me, until I can somehow build 4 to six guitars a year, I don't think I want to stray from the Martin standard. I may and should try a full falcate braced guitar as it's a proven design.

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Kbore
PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2023 2:23 pm 
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DennisK wrote:
.... Here's another fun idea, replacing two quadrants of the X pattern with a semicircular brace. Eliminates the 4-way intersection, and the long brace becomes a sort of fulcrum to create a strong asymmetric diagonal dipole.


I really like that idea @DennisK.
A short brace FROM between the RH X brace where it t-bones the LH X brace; TO intersect with the semicircle under the Top LEFT corner of the bridge would add support to counteract the bridge torsion from the strings. Just imagining that I have any idea of what I'm talking about.

I'm just about setpup to build a test bed "guitar body", sans top, for modeling a top's resonance with audio frequency energy from a Celestion speaker.

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Colin North
PostPosted: Sat Sep 23, 2023 7:09 am 
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Re the brace radiusing, I use a template/OH router with a flush cut bit to cut a radius, and then sand the x-braces, etc in pairs to help keep them at 90 degrees on radius blocks to 240 (I have 100/120/180/240 grit blocks)
Notches in the X braces are cut on a router table with 6mm or 6.3mm bits depending.
May sound complicated, but it goes pretty quick and gives a good fit and gluing surfaces,

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The name catgut is confusing. There are two explanations for the mix up.

Catgut is an abbreviation of the word cattle gut. Gut strings are made from sheep or goat intestines, in the past even from horse, mule or donkey intestines.

Otherwise it could be from the word kitgut or kitstring. Kit meant fiddle, not kitten.


These users thanked the author Colin North for the post (total 2): Kbore (Mon Sep 25, 2023 3:06 pm) • bcombs510 (Sat Sep 23, 2023 7:27 am)
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DennisK
PostPosted: Sat Sep 23, 2023 7:28 am 
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Colin North wrote:
Re the brace radiusing, I use a template/OH router with a flush cut bit to cut a radius, and then sand the x-braces, etc in pairs to help keep them at 90 degrees on radius blocks to 240 (I have 100/120/180/240 grit blocks)
Notches in the X braces are cut on a router table with 6mm or 6.3mm bits depending.
May sound complicated, but it goes pretty quick and gives a good fit and gluing surfaces,

How do you clamp them for template routing where the clamps don't get in the way of the router?
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Colin North
PostPosted: Sat Sep 23, 2023 6:08 pm 
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Small wing nuts and a cork lined strip hold the brace against the 18 mm template which has a ledge and spacer to set various brace heights.
Some strokes with a block plane after putting the brace in help reduce any tear out/splitting on the face of the brace.
I have small wooden knobs on the template to move it along the router bit, I like my fingers ....

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The name catgut is confusing. There are two explanations for the mix up.

Catgut is an abbreviation of the word cattle gut. Gut strings are made from sheep or goat intestines, in the past even from horse, mule or donkey intestines.

Otherwise it could be from the word kitgut or kitstring. Kit meant fiddle, not kitten.
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