Official Luthiers Forum!

Thanks again to everyone who was able to join yesterday's roundtable meeting. A special thanks to Don Parker for a very informative session on recording our instruments! I've personally upped my recording game using his guidance and I think it will help anyone interested in going deeper on the topic. The recording is below and Don's excellent paper on the topic is available here - https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

If you would like to submit anonymous feedback on topics, experience, etc... please fill out the form here - https://forms.office.com/r/HHEni87fAP

Highlights:
Craig Wilson - 2:10 - Craig is gearing up to shoot pics of his instruments. He's enlisted the help of his son and purchased some gear. Can't wait to see the results. This is a perfect topic for a future meeting.

Brent Tobin - 6:25 - Brent is working on a 00, shared some tips about working with cedar, and showed us his latest tool, a sweet ECE Primus plane! If you've not seen one before (it was new to me) check it out.

Ken Nagy - 12:15 - More work on the cello and the Les Paul. Shared an update about the 15" archtop and shared some carving techniques.

Jay De Rocher - 25:30 - An update on Jay's work on the mandocello. Jay shared details about how they are constructed, scale length, and the impressive torque that the strings put on the top!

Don Parker - 35:05 - Don shared a very thorough deep dive into recording techniques. If you have interest in the topic I recommend checking the recording. A hearty thanks to Don for putting that together!

Brad Combs - 1:29:40 - Shared my setup for using the iRig Duo Pro coupled with two condenser mics to record. Don has been a great help to me in really fine tuning this setup and I'm getting the best results I have ever gotten with it.

Recording:
Direct Link - https://youtu.be/TP3ilD_Ucm0

Attendees:
Craig Wilson
Ken Nagy
Don Parker
Brent Tobin
Jay De Rocher
Brad Combs

See you next month!

Brad
--

_________________
Insta - https://www.instagram.com/cbcguitars/
Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/cbcguitars

Well, a little over a year has gone by since this round of the OLF roundtable, but I finally got around recently to trying out the excellent information provided by Don Parker and Brad Combs on recording techniques. I just graduated to playing with stereo recording using two mics in ORTF configuration.

I made a short video that has two recordings of an octave mandolin I built to compare the sound from recording using the iphone's internal mic vs. two Shure PGA81 condenser mics in stereo ORTF going through an iRig interface to the iphone. The first sound clip in the video was recorded with the iphone mic and the second with the Shure mics. The iphone was located about 3 feet away from the instrument and the Shure mics were about 8" from the instrument with the center of the V between the mics lined up with the end of the fretboard extension.

I can hear the difference even through the tiny speakers on my laptop. It easier to hear the difference listening through headphones or real speakers.

Let me know what you think.

https://youtu.be/vWKSzyL5eJA

_________________
Once in a while you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right - Robert Hunter

I think the better gear and mic placement make a huge difference, Jay! I’m so glad you found value in what we talked about. The octave mando sounds great (particularly the second time around).

That’s great, Jay! Yeah, thanks again to Don who shared a lot of great detail about recording with the group. It’s been super useful.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

_________________
Insta - https://www.instagram.com/cbcguitars/
Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/cbcguitars

Hey Brad, do you have a link to the mic holder you’re using for the ORTF configuration? You are using the Shure PGA81’s, right?

I’ve been using an Audio Technica AT4040 condenser mic at about 2’ with a Shure SM57 about 12” from the end of the fretboard and have experienced the issues Don was talking about. I’m thinking I’ll try the ORTF configuration with some PG181’s.

Gotta say that was a real good session on the audio recording and the document is real good too. I found it to be super helpful. Thanks Don!!

_________________
Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

The holder I use is here - https://a.co/d/090zBxWl

The arm is here - https://a.co/d/07I2TkqV

The mics are indeed PGA81’s - https://a.co/d/0emUATKg

The holder and arm are holding up well considering they are Amazon specials.

Brad


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

_________________
Insta - https://www.instagram.com/cbcguitars/
Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/cbcguitars

Thank you sir.


Steve

_________________
Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

I'm glad the information is useful, Steve!

On the positioning of the mics: You can use adjustable mic positioners like Brad has shown, but you can also buy 3D printed mic clips that only hold the mic in, say, XY or ORTF orientation. This makes repeating that specific pattern very easy. Just Google those terms and 3D printing and you will find them from several sources for not too much money, if that sort of thing would interest you.

For boom arms, the desk mounts work fine (I own and use several), but you can also just use a boom on a mic stand with a heftier base than normal. A boom on a beefy mic stand can hold 2 small mics without a problem, and you can take it anywhere, as opposed to something that clamps or screws to your desk. Several options, depending on what you prefer.

Again, I'm so glad folks are getting some value out of the information!

I ordered a mic holder like Brad's. I've got a mic stand with a boom that has tripod legs and is pretty stable so it should work. I've been using Garage Band but I'm not real happy with it so I'll download the Reaper demo and try it out too. Like Brad I'm looking for that Dream Guitars demo sound, now if I could just play like Carl Miner - ha! Here's what I'm doing now, not the best room but at least it's not empty.

_________________
Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

If I ever meet a genie, that might be one of my three wishes. SUCH a good player.

I got to take the things I learned about recording an instrument from Don's presentation and his guide document and from Brad's presentation out into the wild to record some demos of my octave mandolin and one of my guitars. My friend Dean Snider played them an I recorded his performances in an art gallery. I used the Shure PGA81 mics in ORTF setup going through an iRig into my iphone.

The first video is Dean playing an instrumental he wrote for his daughter's wedding. In the second, he sings What a Wonderful World accompanying himself with the octave mandolin.

One thing I learned is that this setup works well for recording the vocal and the instrument at the same time. The other is that I need to get a shorter mic stand so that I can shoot video at this height and keep the mic boom out of frame.

https://youtu.be/B9uCZoOxJwk

https://youtu.be/xinO6TsWADc

_________________
Once in a while you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right - Robert Hunter

Those recordings sound good! I’m really impressed with the IRig setup, it seems like an easy way to get video and decent audio.

_________________
Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

Those are great recordings of great performances, Jay! Quite lovely. Well done!

When you compare the different ways of recording in stereo, you will notice subtle differences in the sound. X/Y will give you sounds more clustered around the middle of the soundscape. ORTF (the method used here) gives a wider spread, which you can really hear when Dean moves around.

If at some point you can borrow a pair of figure 8 or multi pattern mics that can use a figure 8 pattern, the Blumlein method can also give a wonderful sound for a singing guitarist. Or, with the two mics you used here, try recording a singing guitarist by making the spread of the mics vertical instead of horizontal.

I definitely found it simple and easy to set up and use. The iRig Recorder app is pretty straight forward too. There were a couple things that weren't immediately obvious on how to use it but they weren't hard to figure out. One thing I like is that in addition to being able to monitor the mics through headphones plugged into the iRig and you can also listen to playback of videos you just recorded on the phone through the headphones which makes it easy to confirm the quality of the recordings on the spot. The setup is also very portable. I carried the entire setup (mic stand, mic boom, mics & cables, tripod for the iphone, headphones, and the iRig) in a daypack with room to spare.

_________________
Once in a while you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right - Robert Hunter

I think I’ll have to add the IRig to my growing pile of audio equipment. I would really like to try it and it sounds like a good capability to have available.

_________________
Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

Thanks for the tips, Don. With the last setup with two mics positioned vertically, would you record in mono? I would guess that if it was recorded in stereo that the singer and the instrument would end up separated at least somewhat to the left and right in the stereo image. Which may or may not be desirable, I don't know.

_________________
Once in a while you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right - Robert Hunter

Jay--

The vertical spread might have some tendency to pick up the voice louder in one mic and the instrument louder in the other, but not so much if you have the mics far enough away. It all depends on how you set things up. And it depends on what you are going for. You can start out with the two channels panned hard left and right, but you can also pull them both in toward the middle a bit more, or you can sum them to mono, if you want. And if one is louder than the other, you can always adjust the gain to equal them out.

The reason I suggest tinkering with it is that Dean was moving around a bit while he played, and you could hear that happening in the left/right channels. Now, that can be cool or it can be not cool. I thought it was cool, but some folks might not. If you want to avoid that, the vertical spread should avoid it. He's not moving up and down; he's moving left and right.

If/when you experiment with figure 8 mics, you can set up a great way to isolate the voice from the instrument, even with a singing guitarist, which gives you more control over the mix of the two. You point the null of the vocal mic at the instrument, and you point the null of the instrument mic at the singer's mouth. It really works pretty well. But each is a mono signal. If you want a stereo image, you have to make things even more complicated with more mics or more processing!

With Dean, you were fortunate in that the mix of his voice and his playing were not out of whack. You could just let the mix be what it turned out to be. In some situations, either the singer or the instrument might be overpowering the other, in which case you may want the ability to fix that. In that situation, it would be good to have more separation between the two, into two separate channels.

None of this takes away from the recordings you made; they were great! I'm just mentioning other tools in the toolbox, as you move forward.