Official Luthiers Forum!

Hello Everyone,

As I continue to improve my skills I can see a dim light at the end of the long tunnel, where one day I may have a completed guitar, that I would feel confident in selling to another person. This brings a few questions to mind that those with more experience might have an answer for.

1. Is it ok to sell your 1st guitar? Should a person build several and keep them or give them away, before starting to sell their guitars?

2. How do you determine what a fair price is for your 1st few instruments?

3. What kind of warantee/guarantee is expect when you are a newbie luthier?

4. And, most important, how do you find someone to buy one!

Any help is greatly appreciated.

Thank you!

JeffJeff Doty38438.9769675926

My whole family has guitars made by me whether they play them or not someone had to have my lessons. I didn't feel comfortable selling a guitar till I knew it was right, and then when some did leave my family they were just to freinds. Finally I had a guy bring me a national steel for repair (it needed a new neck) and he convinced me that I needed to build him a guitar so I did, that was about 20 or so guitars ago.

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Tickle your guitar daily, and it'll tickle you back.

I'd keep your first, whatever you do. Even if it turns out great, you want to hang on to your first, definitely. Also good to have one sitting there, so you can see how you're improving, and if any problems develop, etc.

Right now, because hardly anyone in my family plays, I'm building for friends. I'm pretty much getting material cost out of there, and if they like it, I've told them they can give me what they think is appropriate on top of that, but no more than 100-200 bucks more, kinda thing. Max. I don't really feel comfortable charging anything much until I feel I'm starting to get a handle on the sound and durability (it helps I've been building electrics, but not very much) If something goes wrong with the instruments, and it's my fault (ie, materials and workmanship defects), I'll take it back, repair/replace/whatever it free of charge, obviously. I just want the opportunity to keep on building, get better, and eventually make maybe double materials cost on my instruments. Then again, I'm not looking to turn this into carreer; it's strictly a passion.

I built my first for myself, for better or worse. Then I built for friends for cost of materials. Even that's a big risk.
If you want to sell guitars, then pay your dues first. Take great pains to learn and understand repair work. More than likely those early guitars will come back at you for needed repairs. There is far more to know about building guitars than I thought when I first started 7 or 8 years ago. I'm just barely beginning to understand the basics. I used to think I was really getting there. Now I know better. Don't rush to sell your guitars.
Just food for thought.

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

Jeff

I would also say that you should hang onto your first one no matter what. I sold my second one for the cost of materials plus a little bit. It was really rough. Structurally it was stable, but it had some cosmetic flaws. Numbers 3 and 4 were snatched up by a friend who realized I was willing to give him a tremendous deal. It is probably easiest to make your first few sales to family and friends. You will find that your guitars will probably improve with leaps and bounds for the first few. I have completed 5 and the difference between 1-5 is significant. That being said I still have a lot to learn. When you start to think your guitars are turning out good then go show them to a few other luthiers. I recently took a guitar to a couple big stores around here. The luthiers at these stores where able to show me where I needed to make improvements. It was very helpful. As far as warranty goes I have offered the same warranty on all my guitar from the first one I sold and on. It’s the same warranty that is offered by a lot of luthiers. Basically if the guitar malfunctions as a result of defects in the materials (bad glue…) or my workmanship then I will repair or replace at my discretion. My warranty is good for as long as I remain an active luthier. Hope that helps

Josh

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Josh House

Canadian Luthier Supply
http://www.canadianluthiersupply.com
https://www.facebook.com/canadianluthiersupply?ref=hl
House Guitars - Custom Built Acoustic Instruments.
http://www.houseguitars.com

Jeff- keep building them and showing them to as many people as you can. They will let you know when YOUR ready.
There is no magic number of guitars, or years you've built. When your guitars strike someones fancy, they'll commission you. And you'll be off..

LanceK38439.3425810185

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Lance@LuthiersForum.com

I have to agree. Keep number one, I hear that too. Then when you've been around the block a time or two, it seems folks just kind of find out about you. Many times it's old friends that buy your first few instruments, as is my case.

And... another telling sign.... when you walk in your shop and it looks like someone is "dead serious" about building, it'll just click: "I can do this." And if you recognize it in yourself, others are too.

Imagine how many fiddles Stradavari made before he got online to share his wares..... (joke) But hey, in his lifetime his fame spread to distant countries and he made sets or quads of instrument for the French Court.

It doesn't happen overnight and don't quit your day job!

I built only three before I sold my first. Looking back I did not have enough experience under my belt but I got away with it. I sold my first to a local musician I knew very well and he understood that I would stand behind it. I never had to do any real repair work to my early builds. I did have to go back through set-ups a couple of times.

Now to you questions

Q. Is it ok to sell your 1st guitar? Should a person build several and keep them or give them away, before starting to sell their guitars?

A. I would not try to sell till you are very satisfied with you work. Meaning that you believe you have built with zero structural errors. Also be sure you know and understand How to archive good tone, sustain and presents, and be able to reproduce the results. Know that any failure or flaw will come back and bit you, so you need to be sure that you can repair any problem that may arise.

Q. How do you determine what a fair price is for your 1st few instruments?

A. I will answer this the way I went about it. I decided that the most important thing for me in the beginning was to build, not make money. So I choose to price at a rate that made me enough to purchase a new tool or clamps and such, pay for the materials of that guitar and one more. I was able to sell an 3aIRW/Sitka with maple binding and Mahogany neck and case for $800. This equaled two times material and hardware plus $200. This keeps me priced at the student level for a simple guitar. I charge more for more custom work. But my main point is to make the sell pay for the next build. Working like this keeps me out of my own pocket book. Hard fast rule. “This guitar pays for the next”.

Q. What kind of warrantee/guarantee is expect when you are a newbie luthier?

A. It does not matter if you are newbie or a journeyman. You must stand behind your work. That is a requirement to call your self a Craftsman. I warrantee my guitars free of structural defects for ten years this includes neck resets during that period. I do add a disclaimer for heat, humidity and improper care. I also will not warrantee any guitar worked on by another luthier or repairman without my express approval.

Q. And, most important, how do you find someone to buy one!

A. Show and Show and Show. To anyone that you think maybe interested. Word of mouth will sooner or later catch up to you. I found It helpful to put together a self published brochure to give out. Take your work to craft shows and such.

Good Luck
MichaelP38439.4297106481

This is still a hobby for me and I'm in no hurry to start charging for them. I'm having to much fun still to ruin it with demanding customers. I have a couple that I "sold" to musician friends for the cost of the wood.

My solution is a local music foundation that a gentelman started to promote music in the schools. I donate the guitars to the foundation which passes them on to students.I get to build at my leisure, experiment as I feel and I get to take a tax deduction for the donation.

William Cumpiano has an article that you might want to read if you haven't seen it before.
http://www.cumpiano.com/Home/Articles/Articles/pedagog.htm

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Scott Thompson
Port Townsend,WA

"In a perfect world we'd all sing in tune
But this is reality so give me some room"
-Billy Bragg

I sold my first guitar for full price to a major fortune 500 company. Well, I think UPS is in the fortune 500. They crushed it when it was on its way back from school. It allowed me to by some pretty significant tools.
That aside: I didn't even try to sell until #5, which was a commission that I was pretty nervous about. It turned out pretty well but I saw it last year and the flaws stuck out like crazy to me.
I just recently sold #3 to a cousin. It was just hanging in a cupboard and he wanted to take up the guitar and didn't care what it looked like. He got a great little guitar for less than materials (the tuners were Gotoh black classical tuners that cost me $140 alone).
I don't think there is a magic number that enables you to start selling. If you feel comfortable to have your name on it and have it in public, then sell away.
As Michael said, the warranty is very important. You MUST stand behind your work. If someone were to come to you with a bridge that popped off and you didn't have time/ambition to fix it, that would tarnish your reputation forever. I have a lifetime warranty on all of my guitars. With the standard stipulations of course (heat, humidity, abuse,,,) but truth be told, if someone came to me with a guitar that they dropped off a stage, I'd most likely fix it for them. Be proactive and you'll keep people happy. Example: if someone calls and says that the guitar broke, don't say "well, I'll take a look to see if it will be covered under warranty", instead say "I'd really like to take a look and see what failed and why". It sounds better and, though it really means the same thing, the customer will be more happy with the response.
The only thing that I REFUSE to warranty is if someone else has done unauthorized repairs/modifications. If the customer can't call me to do a mod/repair, I feel they have lost the right to call me to fix the screw up. Pwoolson38440.808599537

Something I did just last month. Business Cards.

It's amazing how quickly the ten in my wallet disappear. It has my name, what I do for a living, both my phone numbers, my email address, my building philosophy, and my web address.

Two color, raised letter, five cents.

Well, I must be one of the most fortunate guys here. I got a commision on my second and tried every thing to convince my friend why I shouldn't build him a guitar.

He didn't care, I told him that the finish would be flawed, he didn't care, I told him that there would be mistakes and it may just fall apart. He didn't care.

He was happy to pay me for the material, my labour and the case he got with the guitar. I propty pointed out all the flaws, which weren't to many to my surprise and he looked at it, held it for a long time, than gladly paid me for it, the full agreed price. I did agree to redo the finish on it when I was set up for spraying as I was not happy at all with the finish on it.

Now I just delivered my 3rd, which I gave to a friend and he paid for materials. Same issue with the finish, but he wanted the guitar as it was, knowing that we would redo the finish at some point.

Every one is a learning cure which is very steep at for the first, what... 20-100 guitars, even the veterans have issues with there guitars at times, only 99% of use would never know what they are talking about.

Get feedback from some local luthiers if you can, their input is invaluble.

Also, Don't ever sell your first, especially if you made it for yourself. My first is 2 years old and sounds better than anything I could have paid for for the same price to make it.

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"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson

Scott

Great article from Cumpiano.

Josh - an amateur luthier

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Josh House

Canadian Luthier Supply
http://www.canadianluthiersupply.com
https://www.facebook.com/canadianluthiersupply?ref=hl
House Guitars - Custom Built Acoustic Instruments.
http://www.houseguitars.com

My experience is quite similar to Rod's. My first guitar was a commission. In fact, if the customer hadn't goaded me on, I might have never built guitars.
He was a friend from church, and we talked about guitars a lot. I had built some dulcimers, and showed him a couple. He put two and two together and insisted that I build him a guitar. This was in back '79, and the instrument was finished in '80. Then, when another friend saw the finished instrument, he wanted a guitar for himself. That taught me that one guitar can sell another, perhaps many others.

As for the price, one has to be realistic. You are just starting. This won't be your best effort. The market is flooded with aspiring builders (and darn good ones, too). In my situation, on top of all that, this was for a friend.
When you are finally finished, you will feel like charging a million bucks. But of course, two million is more like it. In the end, it just might come down to picking a number that in your heart you know is fair. I charged my first customer $350. This bought him a small jumbo w/ Sitka top, Kokko wood back and sides (pretty rare), mahogany neck, and herringbone rosette and purflings. Oh yes, EI Rosewood bindings w/ the thin w/b/w side purflings that Gurian used to sell when he was in, what, New Hampshire? Hardshell case, and-- it was a lefty. That alone was worth the price!
Like Rod said, this was a fortunate scenario, and I feel blessed.
Hope you have plenty of good fortune yourself!

SteveSteve Kinnaird38441.9555787037

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From Nacogdoches...the oldest town in Texas.

http://www.stephenkinnaird.com

Go to a music store the sells quality guitars. Check your ego at the door. Imagine that your guitar is hanging on the rack next to the Martins, Taylors, Collings, etc. Pretend that you've never seen the guitar before. Would you buy it? At what price? Would you pay a price in a range similar to the other high quality guitars? Imagine that your guitar IS a Martin, etc. so that you take the "unknown luthier" out of the equation.

I you honestly believe that your guitar is every bit as good as a $2000-$3000 Martin, go ahead and sell it. The buyer would be getting a good guitar. Because you are, in fact, an unknown luthier, expect to discount the guitar quite a bit.

None of my instrument have passed this test. I've been pleased with the sound and I like the setup and playability. It's just that there are little things like
small kinks in purfling, a few open pores here and there, the sides reveal a bit of cupping in reflected light. In short, I wouldn't pay $2000 for one of my guitars and I wouldn't expect anyone else to either.

I agree with Mike. Good way to isolate your guitar realistically. I've sold three. One to my brother, and two to very good friends.

Again I agree, these guitars have slight imperfections, pores that didn't get completely filled, finishes that get close, but no cigar. Binding wiggles, thin at the neck, you name it.

I guarantee none of these friends would sell me their guitar back at what they paid me for it. Why? Because it's more than a guitar, it's a conversation piece, it's a relationship with a friend who happens to be a luthier. It actually performs and performs well it's intended purpose.

One friend on guitar four, after he'd had it a week, said, "You need to double your prices." He knew what he possessed was really special. He owns a handmade knive that cost $3500. I know the maker. But you know, he never uses it, doesn't want to scratch it or damage it in any way.

But the $1500 Dred Not! he bought from me, including the case.... he uses it every week leading worship in small groups at his church. So, what's worth more to him, the knife or the guitar?

The other friend bought his just to be nice and maybe someday his son will play it. It's a conversation piece. Why did he buy it? Sometimes folks just buy you, not what you are selling or making.

I'm building one for my sister right now. It's a nice Coco and Adi, paid for in advance. She's going to give it away. So, how do you sell your first guitar, or your first few guitars? It just kind of happens while you are doing what you do. Making a living, and usually, building guitars on the side.

Frank Ford had it right, "So, you want to be a luthier? I hope you like to eat beans." That is true to the max if it is your sole means of support. I really enjoyed the Cumpiano article, it's all about the love of building, share your love, and eventually you'll sell some guitars.

I like the way Zig Ziglar puts it, "You can have anything in life that you want. If you help enough other people get what they want." When people see and hear a stunning guitar, it becomes the "pearl of great price" and they'll mortgage the house to get it.

Jeff,

Those here with good memories will remember that some time ago I decided, following the awesome example of Stan Thomison, to give away some of my earlier guitars that I no longer used, they were good guitars but no longer used. I decided to give them to people recommended to me by our local veterans and disabled groups. Well, over the last couple of months I have given away six guitars with the last available one soon to follow. Not only has this cleared me some space, and given both me and the recipients a great deal of pleasure, but had I been in the market to sell guitars it was also great advertising.

Since I started to give them away I have had four enquiries from people asking if I would sell them a guitar. One was from a local (30 miles away) music shop who wanted me to build guitars for sale in the shop. You have to understand that the market is completely different here in the UK and that shops for high-end guitars are few and far between, but he wanted to put my guitars on sale at the top end of the price range ?2-2.5K ($4-5k)which is the base price for custom guitars here. He was dissappointed when I told him I only build for pleasure, but the lesson is get some of your guitars out there, give them to local charitable groups. The more people that see your guitars and hear them played the more chance you have of people wanting to pay you for one. And, the ones you give away will only improve your building skills and your sense of well being. I shall continue to give away every fourth guitar I build, not for any altruistic reasons but because it makes me feel good!

ColinColin S38441.5069560185

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I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

Colin,
Since you build for pleasure, I am willing to contribute to your joy. Send that "fourth" guitar to Nacogdoches and make two people very happy!

Steve

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From Nacogdoches...the oldest town in Texas.

http://www.stephenkinnaird.com

I love this forum! While I fully intend to keep my first (as well as my wife insisting upon it), and while I consider myself a humble individual, I am also a dreamer to the 'nth degree! Thanks for bringing me back to earth. I haven't even begun to build, but I've managed many times to make Shell concerned that I'm quitting the very next week to open my shop for business. Also, thank you for confirming that the thoughts I've had for when I'm ready to sell might actually work like craft shows and talking to music store owners. The gentleman that taught my brother to play has a store and I plan to get his appraisal when there's something to see! Speaking of my bro, I've a tale to share, but I'll put it in a new thread.

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DES - Shepherd, MI