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PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2006 11:36 pm 
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Old Growth Brazilian Rosewood
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[QUOTE=DennisLeahy] An excellent thread that every aspiring or current pro should read!

Personally, I have no desire to ever try to make the leap into professional lutherie. But if I did, one thing I would do would be to offer up something other than yet another awesome Martin clone.

From a marketing perspective, I would think in terms of being bold, daring, innovative, DIFFERENT. If one has the engineering skills to provide that difference on an engineering level, then that is an aspect that could be promoted. But, even for those whose skills do not include engineering, you might make innovative design the feature that makes you stand out in a crowd.

Case in point: Jeff Babicz. I have not played nor heard one of Jeff's guitars. Let's say for the sake of argument that the engineering innovations cannot be heard by a blindfolded player. (I'm not saying that is really true.) Now, take one flattop steelstring guitar from 20 of the world's top luthier's, and hang them all on a showroom wall with one of Jeff's. I'd be willing to bet that Jeff's guitar will see more auditioning time by serious players/buyers than many of the others. Sure, some players will be enamoured by the "O" on the Olson (or whichever manufacturer they are pre-conditioned to believe is "great"), and a few will shy away from any guitar that is a radical departure from CF Martin's 1800's designs. But I believe that the vast majority of players will be intrigued by the guitar that stands out from the crowd.

I'm certainly not suggesting that most builders should attempt to build instruments as innovative (and as different from Martin clones) as say, Fred Carlson's creations, but I do think that it will become increasingly difficult to sell great Martin clones against high-end Martins themselves, other high-end production/factory Martin clones, and maybe the 2nd or 3rd wave of new Chinese Martin clones that will come in and take a lot more than the low end of the market.

$0.02

Dennis Leahy[/QUOTE]

That certainly is "A" strategy... but in the end, I think it will be a dangerous one. Not necessarily a bad one, but one of those gambles that could be a complete disaster or a huge windfall. Look at McPherson.

If your maximum capacity is 6 guitars a year ... maybe you can leverage this originality to fill your orders... but again.... I would be cautious, the guitar market (and especially the classical market) is slow to adapt to change. Listen to Bob Taylor talk about the M/T bolt on, or his NT neck design. They spent HUGE money to get the market to accept these ideas.

I think you are right about being "Different", but I don't think the PRODUCT has to be very different.... I think YOU have to be different. I think focusing your brand and niching will help you. That way you can jam a flag in the ground in a section of the market, claim it as your own, then begin to build your name there.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2006 12:35 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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Brock, would it be better for an aspiring luthier to be himself in design and creating tiny modifications to the already existing guitar shapes?

I loved creating my bridge design and in a future build, i'd love to modify an existing shape, a different sound hole shape. Do you think the market today would accept that kind of changes that are somewhat minimal as long as i have a signature sound?

Also, i'd like to have a shop where each instrument would have a name instead of a serial number, instruments with soul, do you think there would be a market for that? Or is the guitar market more conservative than i think it is?

Thanks

Serge


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2006 1:29 am 
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[QUOTE=Serge Poirier] Brock, would it be better for an aspiring luthier to be himself in design and creating tiny modifications to the already existing guitar shapes?

I loved creating my bridge design and in a future build, i'd love to modify an existing shape, a different sound hole shape. Do you think the market today would accept that kind of changes that are somewhat minimal as long as i have a signature sound?

Also, i'd like to have a shop where each instrument would have a name instead of a serial number, instruments with soul, do you think there would be a market for that? Or is the guitar market more conservative than i think it is?

Thanks

Serge[/QUOTE]


I certainly think an eye for design is a big plus. But beauty is sometimes in the eye of the beholder. Some guitars are covered in bling and that speaks to some buyers, some have clean simple lines and that speaks to others. I think to choose your design style delibertly and then stick to it makes a lot of sense. That way you develop your own "look".

And with respect to changing the shapes/sizes. I would absolutely encourage that. However, you might be wise to seek some advice from an industrial designer (or even an artist) to help you. Guitars are tough projects because there is an element of engineering (how will my changes effect the sound and the construction) and art (will my changes be pleasing to look at). I think trying to stick with tried and true design elements (such as the divine proportion) will help with the artistic side.   

One thing I would not do is create a series of guitars that have no close relatives in the market. No matter what the guitar, people always gravitate to say things like "this is similar to an OM size guitar" or "this is a smaller guitar, much like a 0". These are landmarks players / buyers are familiar with and they need something that they can grasp onto. Again, I think changes are good, they help differentiate you, but you need to do it in a way that the players can relate to.

With regard to nameing them. I am of two minds on this 1) My gut tells me it is the right thing to do, I think it is a way for you to own the name and build a mark. But 2) Name 5 models by different builders? Can't do it? Neither can I.... It is hard enough to build a brand around your own name, let alone build a series of sub brands for each of your models.   Plus..... tell me what some of the model names represent? What is a "Cathedral" or a "Nightingale" or a "Companion"? What kind of guitars do they represent. I think these names are nice... and they help introduce an emotion, but they are "empty" with respect to communicating anything about the product.   There are a few that I do think hit the mark.. Bill Moll's "working man's hero" is one example... I don't fault the builders of these models (who are famous builders BTW)... it is a really tough problem. I am not quite sure what I think the right approach is...

Brock Poling38942.4470601852

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2006 1:53 am 
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[QUOTE=Brock Poling]
That certainly is "A" strategy... but in the end, I think it will be a dangerous one. Not necessarily a bad one, but one of those gambles that could be a complete disaster or a huge windfall. Look at McPherson.

If your maximum capacity is 6 guitars a year ... maybe you can leverage this originality to fill your orders... but again.... I would be cautious, the guitar market (and especially the classical market) is slow to adapt to change.
[/QUOTE]
Hi Brock,

Is McPherson doing poorly? I know they advertise/market a lot, but I have no idea how well or poorly they are doing. Also I should say that my opinions/guesses were aimed not at production shops as much as hand-built solo luthiers. If a solo pro luthier is producing maybe 20 to 30 guitars a year, their marketing strategies are probably much more "hands-on" and word-of-mouth than the production/factory guys. The formula falls apart if your guitars do not sing beautifully. All the design or engineering innovations in the world won't cover up a poor instrument. But, if your guitars do possess that magic, AND they are innovative, I think you have a much better shot.

I think your caution on classical guitars is warranted, especially if you (the pro luthier) want to see volume sales. We have probably all heard that the classical guitar market is much more "stuck" on tradition. Innovations in the classical guitar market that seem to be gaining acceptance are more or less "hidden" visually (for example, double tops) beneath a traditional exterior. That's not to say that a luthier could not sell innovative nylon string guitars, but they would certainly be eliminating (or at least making an uphill battle with) a big part of the current buying market. But who knows, perhaps just a single high-profile classical player, playing an outside-the-box design, could spark an opening in that market. Look at what Django did for Maccaferri/Selmer.

Dennis

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2006 3:36 am 
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My view, the danger is in calculating the
profit you can make in Lutherie.
Build because that is what you Love to do.
Analyzing market trends and trying to follow
them is the scheme of those looking for the
big break. Staying small and growing at a
natural pace is the best option. Word of mouth
has been my best advertising. Build a quality
product and be patient. The larger you become
the more risk you will find. I heard that when
Taylor first started, returns for warranty work
where near 50%. where's the profit in that?
Cash flow is what keeps you going, profit is a
bonus. If you stay small and honest,the future
of lutherie looks promising to me.
If you are going for the gold, good luck.

Tom



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PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2006 4:45 am 
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One of the driving forces that got me into building guitars in the first place was the desire to innovate. I have a sketch book full of designs that I was toying around with then. But as a newbie builder I had no perspective -- at least when it comes to building some of the designs, and what I could expect them to sound like. I had a great deal of perspective as a player, however.

Still, I didn't the let lack of building experience stop me altogether. My second guitar was an "out there" design, especially for a classical. It taught me a lot about what NOT to do. But it was successful enough where I wasn't willing to give up on the design completely, so I tried again, but this time retaining only the basic principles of the design. Everything else about the guitar was very traditional. This second prototype was surprisingly good sounding, albeit a bit strange looking. But it proved the merits of the design well enough for me so that I offer this model now to anyone brave enough to step outside the box, and give it a go. So far, no takers -- but the guitar has received favorable comments from everyone who's tried it.

Acceptance of innovation within the classical community is quite slow, I find. And I'll wager, as Brock has suggested, that it is almost as slow withing the steel string community. Classical players are much more likely to be willing to buy a guitar that might be quite innovative on the inside, but which still looks and sounds like a classical. Those guitars that depart from the "look and sound" are slow to receive acceptance. I think, in particular, of the Kasha-Schneider collaboration, which began in the 1967 and continued until Schneider's death in 1997. I've never played one, but by all accounts I've read and heard, especially the later ones that Schneider built were excellent guitars.    There are a number of other builders who build in the Kasha-Schneider style, but still, this design has hardly caught the classical world on fire.

A couple of years ago, while visiting a local guitar shop, I tried out a couple of guitars that were built entirely out of composite materials -- carbon fiber bodies and tops, etc. (Sorry I don't recall the maker's name.) They were dreadnaughts, and both sounded surprisingly good. They weren't cheap, either. But when I compared them with a couple of Martins and Taylors, I could hear the difference. They just didn't have the warmth and depth that wood has. And because they were built from composites, my sense then was that they would never develop this warmth either. What you hear is what you get, in all likelihood.

To me this reinforced the importance of an instrument's sound. It isn't enough for it to have good volume, and even balance, nice basses and singing trebles. To gain acceptance, it must also sound like what a guitar like that is supposed to sound like. Dreadnaughts that don't sound like dreadnaughts, and classicals that don't sound like classicals will most likely not be popular among the buying public. Preconceived notions drive this market, it seems to me.

So the big challenge with innovation, the way I see it, is, at a minimum, to retain what it is that people like to hear, and hopefully to improve upon this quality. But even so, if the appearance of the instrument departs radically from tradition, acceptance will be an uphill battle.

I can't help but wonder why this is the case, though. Look at automotive styling, for example. Take the big car shows, where the manufacturers put new and innovative concept cars on display each year. They're pushing the envelope constantly. I realize it's more than a bit like comparing apples to oranges, comparing automotive technology to acoustic instruments, but still it seems to me that a bit more of a view toward innovation, and doing so for the sake of pushing the envelope, shouldn't be shied away from among acoustic builders.

For me, nowadays, and I reckon for many of the other folks here, I don't have the time I would like to work on some of the designs that are still bouncing around in my head. With a waiting list, I feel obligated to focus my time and energies on commissioned instruments. Maybe I should set aside weekends or something (yes, I have no life ) for the experimental guitars.

Best,

Michael


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2006 5:22 am 
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Thanks Brock, Dennis, Tom and Michael, your posts help me put everything in perspective, prudence is wisdom, word of mouth, patience, perseverance, all great advice for the newbies aspiring to a lutherie career. I'll give myself a few years as a hobbyist and slowly develop my style, a small train can go a long way...

Thanks!

Serge


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2006 5:22 am 
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[QUOTE=Tom Morici] My view, the danger is in calculating the
profit you can make in Lutherie.
Build because that is what you Love to do.
Analyzing market trends and trying to follow
them is the scheme of those looking for the
big break. Staying small and growing at a
natural pace is the best option. Word of mouth
has been my best advertising. Build a quality
product and be patient. The larger you become
the more risk you will find. I heard that when
Taylor first started, returns for warranty work
where near 50%. where's the profit in that?
Cash flow is what keeps you going, profit is a
bonus. If you stay small and honest,the future
of lutherie looks promising to me.
If you are going for the gold, good luck.

Tom


[/QUOTE]


Ok... that's an interesting theory... that marketing is a "scheme"? I hardly think so. Marketing is simply figuring out how you will tell the world about what you do.

If the "no marketing" marketing plan worked for you then congratulations.... (honestly). But I think it would be foolish to think that that is a rational approach for everyone to follow. This theory only produces success stories because you never hear from the failures.... they disappear into obsurity...


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2006 5:55 am 
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Hey Brock, what IS the deal with McPherson?

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2006 7:38 am 
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Brock
I agree with you fully, a no market approach
is not a rational means to success.
And I apologize to anyone who may have taken
my comment as an insult. I did not intend that.
I may be the least known luthier here.
I have followed this business for the last 37yrs.
or so. Marketing works, lets face it. It is a great
way to grow any business. Just be prepared for the
up and down ride you may take. I have been there
running business's for myself and other companies.
It has been my experience, not a theory that if you are good at what you do. People will find you. In fact
about two months ago I told one friend here I had decided to build guitars full time. 10 days later a retired country and western musican showed up at my door, this guy has a collection of around 500 guitars. He was impressed with my current build and is chomping at the bit for the day he will be able to try it. He knows every builder I have ever talked about and every name I could think of related to
instrument business.This guy will be talking about me,best advertising you can have. Now just to give you one more thing to think about I live in a small old west Montana town we have around 200 people mostly ranchers. Build it and they will come.

Tom






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PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2006 8:23 am 
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[QUOTE=Tom Morici] Brock
I agree with you fully, a no market approach
is not a rational means to success.
And I apologize to anyone who may have taken
my comment as an insult. I did not intend that.
I may be the least known luthier here.
I have followed this business for the last 37yrs.
or so. Marketing works, lets face it. It is a great
way to grow any business. Just be prepared for the
up and down ride you may take. I have been there
running business's for myself and other companies.
It has been my experience, not a theory that if you are good at what you do. People will find you. In fact
about two months ago I told one friend here I had decided to build guitars full time. 10 days later a retired country and western musican showed up at my door, this guy has a collection of around 500 guitars. He was impressed with my current build and is chomping at the bit for the day he will be able to try it. He knows every builder I have ever talked about and every name I could think of related to
instrument business.This guy will be talking about me,best advertising you can have. Now just to give you one more thing to think about I live in a small old west Montana town we have around 200 people mostly ranchers. Build it and they will come.

Tom

[/QUOTE]


I am 100% in agreement with you that passion and perserverance have to be there for you to succeed.

However, I am less convinced that if you produce a good product you will "find" business. Again, if your total production capacity is 4 guitars a year, that is a lot easier to "find" four buyers than it would be if your production capacity is 30... so certainly that has some bearing on this equation.

The junk heaps of the world are filled full of "better" products (beta vs. vhs is one that comes immediately to mind).   I think a good / great product is your ticket to the (serious) game, and then you build your marketing upon that. I agree that if you are not creating a good product that all the marketing in the world won't make you successful (in the long run).


My comments on McPherson was not about them doing poorly -- I don't really know how they are doing financially. My comments were more directed at the level of effort they are going to to educate the playing public about their "radical" designs. I know they have deeper pockets than most and that allows them to run full page ads in all the guitar mags, etc.   But that is the kind of education that will be necessary for you to get a bold new design accepted into the market place. Even *** IF *** it is better it is going to take some time for people to come around on radical ideas. Most people adapt to change slowly.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2006 2:40 pm 
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All good points here Tom and Brock!

Brock, let's say i were to make subtle changes to a Dread for example, modifying the curve at waiste, is the market ok with that? Depth at the lower bout?


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2006 3:35 pm 
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Sure? Maybe. I guess it depends on what you do to the waist. Repositioning it vertically on the guitar? Making it tighter? Looser (hummingbird?)?

Bill Moll wrote an interesting article on design a couple issues back in Guitarmaker. It shows some ways to apply the divine proportion and gives some cool ideas / starters.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2006 3:37 pm 
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Thank you very much Brock!


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 3:31 am 
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I'm probably going to freak a few of you out when I state my prices. First I have to say though I am very confident in my product. When I first started building I new I so much to learn I priced my work very low as far as the labor I charged, and still do. My main intent in my profit side of my lutherie is to be sure that the craft pays the bill of running the shop and put a dollar or two in my pocket now and then.

knowing that there were so many highly crafted luthiers out there and that my market was considerably limited in my local area I set my initial labor rate at $5.00/hr. Over the years as my building process became more refined that rendered a better profit, depending on how you look at profit.

I now get $10.00 per hour but that has not affected my sell price all that much as the time for a typical build as dramatically decreased

Now for the part that may shock some of you.

My plain Jane Student models 2A-IRW or Mahogany back sets with 3A Sitka tops, simple wood bindings and no appointments sell for $900 My Custom Deluxe series start at $1600 for basic appointments and go up depending on woods and appointments. Typically one sells in the range of $2000-$2200 range. This has paid the bills, materials and given me a little cash at the end. I know I am giving my labor away at a very low price, but I am not in this to make a living off of it at this point. Rather I want to build and learn my craft in the process.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 3:47 am 
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Love your approach from a newb standpoint Michael, i'm in the same position now that you were in back then, i'll conentrate on perfectioning(sp?) my technique and if i ever do a first commission build, i'll charge a reasonable price so my expenses are totally covered and get a little margin profit that would help pay for the next project.

Thanks

Serge


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 4:59 am 
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[QUOTE=Serge Poirier] Love your approach from a newb standpoint Michael, i'm in the same position now that you were in back then, i'll conentrate on perfectioning(sp?) my technique and if i ever do a first commission build, i'll charge a reasonable price so my expenses are totally covered and get a little margin profit that would help pay for the next project.

Thanks

Serge[/QUOTE]

Serge keep in mind that profit is the amount above materials, shop expenses, and labor. Being reasonable does not mean cheating your self. You have to make a labor rate.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 5:08 am 
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[QUOTE=MichaelP] This has paid the bills, materials and given me a little cash at the end.[/QUOTE]
Michael,

I'm curious as to how long you've been working at this. I don't know if you saw my earlier post here concerning making a living at lutherie, but I'd say your prices are about right if you've been at it for more than five years and less than ten. Any thoughts on my theory?


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 5:32 am 
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Carlton
I have been building guitars for just over 5 years. Building for sale for just over 4 years. I will go back and re-read your post.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 5:36 am 
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One of the items that hasn't been discussed much in this thread is the issue of controlling costs. One way to do this is as both Michael and I have mentioned, namely keeping the assigned labor costs as low as possible. Another way is to look for deals on tonewood and all the ancilliary stuff that makes up a build.

I am deeply grateful to the tonewood vendors here at the forum because they've really helped me keep my tonewood costs down, without my having to cut corners on quality.

But I am an inveterate scrounger, and I'm always on the lookout for good deals I can find locally. I have built a few guitars entirely from woods I've found locally and resawn myself. I have snagged mahogany floor and baseboard moldings that people have thrown away after remodeling their 50+ year old homes. Some of the stuff is suitable for kerfing or tentallones only, but the last one I cut up was perfectly slab-sawn, and is gonna make great braces (rotated 90deg). This piece even had flame figure throughout! A friend of mine is a custom furniture builder and cuts his own veneers. He throws away large sheets of the stuff. I visit him occasionally, and load up on the veneers, which I use to sandwich between the headplate and the headstock. If they're long enough, I run 'em through my pasta maker to make purfling strips. I make my own bindings from side offcuts or, in the case of bloodwood or curly maple, from a couple of pieces of those woods that I picked up at hardwood retailers. I make back and side purfling cut from the curly maple boards I have.

It adds up in the long run. I've built six-strings with as little as a $120 invested, including the tuners (the $45 Schallers), and you wouldn't know it just by looking at them. I've shown pics here before of my redwood/padauk classical -- that was one of 'em. But more typically, especially with my 10-string builds, my materials costs are closer to $260 to $270 for the basic instrument, including the case. The low cost in the latter case is due primarily to the good deals offered by the tonewood vendors here at the OLF, supplemented by savings I've found by sourcing as much of the other woods and trim items as I can.

Best,

Michael

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 5:52 am 
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Yep!! I think your pretty much on the money. That is why I took the approach I did. The first two years of building for sale I just wanted to have the building pay for its self. The last two and a halve years. I have known my guitars compare well so I have charged more for my time but as I said the time required is much less that it once was so the increase has been moderated by this fact. I have been lucky enough to have had no after delivery failures or issues to deal with so far. I had a great deal of cabinet building and other wood working experience prior to building guitars so that has helped me out as far as structural and cosmetic issues were concerned. I warranty my guitars for a 10 year period, including neck sets and one free custom set-up if the spec set-up is not to the clients liking.

I am a firm believer that if you are not confident that your work will hold up for a minimum of 10 years of every day wear and tear then you are not ready to build for sale. Also believe that if you are not experience in most major repairs you are not ready.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 6:09 am 
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[QUOTE=MichaelP] Yep!! I think your pretty much on the money. That is why I took the approach I did.[/QUOTE]
Thanks Michael. Looks like you're going to be one of the few that makes it to "career" status. Remember us "little" people when you get there!

Hey Michael McB.! I like the way you're hustling to make stuff that's not supposed to be "tonewood" into good-looking and (from the response to your 10-string) good-sounding guitars.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 6:12 am 
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Old Growth Brazilian Rosewood
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Joined: Mon Dec 27, 2004 1:20 pm
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With respect to how you price your guitars... realize that this too is a brand decision... and remember that people are buying more than a guitar (remember the romance?)... I am not saying you SHOULD charge more, but you need to factor these things into the equation.

I think that there is an implied statement about quality as it relates to price. I am not saying that I agree with this, but it is a market fact. If items are cheap people immediately think "why?" and they equate this with low quality, inexperience, or other things. So if you have an inexpensive product you better have some solid marketing to explain why. Otherwise you might get pigeonholed in a place you didn't intend.

Consequently, sometimes when you raise prices substantially orders go UP!! And if you raise prices dramatically and often it sometimes creates a hyper-demand event. (I am very interested in why this happens.... it has always facinated me)

This is not a critisism Michael... I understand what you are aiming at.... I have just been at the marketing game a long time and I have seen this strategy backfire.



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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 7:05 am 
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Koa
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Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2005 9:38 am
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Location: United States
[QUOTE=Brock Poling]
Consequently, sometimes when you raise prices substantially orders go UP!! And if you raise prices dramatically and often it sometimes creates a hyper-demand event. (I am very interested in why this happens.... it has always facinated me)

[/QUOTE]

I too have been fascinated by this phenomenon. I have seen it occur first hand when I was in the used/collectible camera biz. At a camera show one time, I watched a particularly canny dealer raise his price as soon as a customer tried to dicker with him over a rare and desirable large-format lens. The guy bought it, but wound up paying significantly more for it if he wouldn't have tried to bargain on price. Later I learned from this dealer that this was a pretty common thing for him to do, especially if he knew that he was the only one at the show who had that item.

I think the root cause of this phenomenon is fear. The potential customer is fearful that the price will go even higher, or that the item will not be available any time soon again. And helping to fuel that negative emotion is another one: greed. The potential customer probably is thinking the item will only appreciate in value, and that whatever the price s/he pays for it now, it will be worth more in the future.

Best,

Michael

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 8:47 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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Joined: Sun Dec 25, 2005 6:32 am
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Location: Canada
[QUOTE=MichaelP]

Serge keep in mind that profit is the amount above materials, shop expenses, and labor. Being reasonable does not mean cheating your self. You have to make a labor rate.[/QUOTE]

Thanks Michael, i think i will start calculating even more on build no 3 and other builds so i can come up with a $5.00/hour rate like you had after the other costs, by tje time my next 4-5 projects are completed, i should have a pretty good idea of how much to charge and feel more comfident about my builds!

Thanks again!

Serge


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