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I think basically LMI's glue and Titebond are similar in that they are both aliphatic resins as opposed to Elmers white "glue-all" which is a PVA glue. I think the PVA is the one attributed to the "cold creep" I've heard mentioned. In all cases using fresh PVA or AR glue can make a lot of difference. I used to buy titebond in the larger bottles but found that I could never use it all up before the glue's viscosity started to thicken from exposure to air in the glue container. With a little expierience you can tell when the viscosiry just doesn't "feel right". I now buy a new bottle of titebond in the smaller 4 oz. container for each guitar I start. You could probably do the same thing with LMI's glue by transfering the glue to smaller containers, I believe this would help.
             I use different types of glues pretty freely in construction so I will throw in my current methodology that works for me:
   Braces,top and back jointing- Hot hide glue.      
   Fingerboard extension, Rossettes- PVA.
   Fingerboard to neck- System Three T-88 epoxy.
   Everything else- Titebond
The only failure I've ever had in ten years is a soundboard top that had a "ridge" form along the join. I Bought the top already jointed so I never did learn what glue it was but suspect it was AR combined with a very dry dealers store.
   

Seriously, what is the big advatage of white glue (other than the ability to re-heat it) over West system epoxy?

No, I am not nuts! I have long wondered this. As I prepare to begin my first guitar, I have to admit that with all the claims of this glue vs. that glue, one who peers in from the outside is just a little lost. In all the reading I have done (weak stomachs aside), hide glue is the adhesive of choice. Most of you seem to prefer white glue or Titebond (not the waterproof variety, I assume). OK, what about the hide glue that comes in a bottle so it can be used sans a glue pot?

This is a serious question. If I can use titebond, I would love to. I don't like the idea of the short working time of hide glue not to mention the heating etc. Having eaten too much Elmers in grade school, I am reluctant to use it lest my body reject the guitar (just kidding! )! All in all, this is a sticky point for the beginner! (oops, I am really sorry about that... )

Your thoughts are appreciated.

Thanks, Steve Brown

Steve

I am by no means an expert, but I think there are a number of reasons why Titebond and similar glues are so popular. It is probably the easiest to use. It gives you enough time to work with before it sets. And yet doesn't take that long to dry. It is also easy to clean up and disassemble if necessary. I had to pull the back of a guitar just a month ago after gluing it on crooked. The lesson is never work when you are stressed. But I was able to disassemble the back with relative ease and reglue it. You can't even tell. Now if I had of used epoxy that would not have worked. Epoxy is useful at times but it sure is messy. Anyway that the perspective of an amateur luthier.

Josh

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Josh House

Canadian Luthier Supply
http://www.canadianluthiersupply.com
https://www.facebook.com/canadianluthiersupply?ref=hl
House Guitars - Custom Built Acoustic Instruments.
http://www.houseguitars.com

Steve:
Prepared liquid hide glue should NOT be used in guitar or instrument construction. It doesn't have the strength that other glues have. I can't comment on West System glue as I have no experience with it.

I will relate a personal experience. My first dozen or so guitars were built with Titebond glue. Then I made the switch to Hot Hide glue and the results were dramatic. I litterally could hear a difference in volume and sustain. I didn't alter the design of my instruments at all. After much research and personal testing I have come to the conclusion that harder glues transmit vibration much more efficiently than softer glues. Yes, Titebond is classified as a softer glue.

I have access to some pretty sophisticated hardness testing lab instruments and have conducted several hardness tests, over time and hide glue is the hardest of all of the glues I tested. Gorilla glue was so soft it didn't even register on the Shore D scale. LMI's white glue is only one measurement point softer than hide glue while Titebond is quite a way down the hardness scale.

So, what does this all mean to us? Well imagine putting a rubber gasket between each glue joint and you have literally increased the dampening in your instrument.

While some have reported failure problems with LMI's white glue I have built 30+ guitars without a hint of failure. I am fairly consistant about keeping the glue refrigerated when it is not in use so this may be a factor but who can say?

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tim...
http://www.mcknightguitars.com

I've heard from knowledgeable people that epoxy can, and often does, seep into endgrain. Once it gets in there, it can't be removed and will always show under the finish as a dark spot. Many also feel that when epoxy is used in acoustically sensitive areas--gluing the bracing to the soundboard, for example--it can adversely affect the sound.

Carlton

That would make sense with what Tim said. Hmmmm....After reating Tim's post I think I will give LMI glue another try.

Josh

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Josh House

Canadian Luthier Supply
http://www.canadianluthiersupply.com
https://www.facebook.com/canadianluthiersupply?ref=hl
House Guitars - Custom Built Acoustic Instruments.
http://www.houseguitars.com

[QUOTE=Josh H] That would make sense with what Tim said. Hmmmm....After reating Tim's post I think I will give LMI glue another try.

Josh[/QUOTE]

Josh - you wont be sorry - for the extra 3 bucks a bottle over titebond, its seem silly to me (NOT) to use it. I always add a bottle to my LMI orders so I dont include the shipping as part of the cost, I need stuff anyway.

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Lance@LuthiersForum.com

What is the chalking phenomenon that occurs when the LMI glue gets cold? It still seems to hold but it dries white. That scares me into heating the bottle up to about 100 degrees in colder weather when my workshop temps are about 65 degrees.

Other than that leetle concern, I use LMI to put on the top and back plate because if its hardness. I equate hardness with sound energy absorption and I don't want no spongy titebond glue absorbing sound energy.

I do use titebond II to glue purfling to binding prior to bending because it is sooo heat tolerant.

Yeah John, I have tried your little TB II trick and that was a good find. Thanks.

2 personal observations about LMI glue:

1) It dries pretty clear, or white and clean up is much neater. That is a nice feature when you are trying to work cleanly inside the box. (Hide glue cleans up good too, but I am still struggling with moving fast enough to use that on all operations.)

2) And this is a slight negative (depending on how you look at it).... its open time is much shorter than titebond. Again, I try to work slow (and neat).

If you work fast you might like the quick set of the glue.

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

I guess after reading tim’s post I’ll start using my LMI glue again, since I haven’t had any problems with it anyway.

john

i keep my shop cooler than most and haven't experienced the 'chalky' thing you mention and mine dries clear. how old is yours? has it got really cold, like freezing or close thereto?

michael mcclain

I've seen the chalking thing too John.

Maybe I just got a bad batch or something but three failures in a row
scares the heck out of me. But I've also used it a lot in the past with no
problems so I'm thinking it might be a bad batch or something (I bought
three bottles and immediately started using them)... I don't know. I like
that it dries clear, but I simply cannot risk having braces pop off, or any
glue joint fail due to glue.

Maybe I'll get a few bottles to replace the ones I tossed out and see if it is
better this time...

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John Mayes
http://www.mayesluthier.com

I'm just a bundle of nerves now.....!

I think I am going to start buying my glue in really small bottles. I have been doing that but now I will probably start buying new glue every few months just to be on the safe side.

Josh

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Josh House

Canadian Luthier Supply
http://www.canadianluthiersupply.com
https://www.facebook.com/canadianluthiersupply?ref=hl
House Guitars - Custom Built Acoustic Instruments.
http://www.houseguitars.com

Josh, that would work if the stock gets rotated. Production date verification would be a no-brainer to me. I've still got to check my Titebond bottle to see if there are numbers on it.

One thing I do is limit my shop to two 16 ounce bottles open at a time. At the halfway point, I pour both together and open a new one. It would make more sense to pour half the new in each half used bottles? HMMMM.

You just may be right Josh, smaller bottles make more sense.

When I receive my glue from LMI I write the arrival date on the bottle with a Sharpie and then it goes straight to the frig. I have one of those small apartment size friges in my shop and it works well for LMI glue, extends the life of CA GREATLY. I also store my hide glue in the freezer section until it's needed. If the LMI glue reaches 6 months old it goes in the trash, at least that's the plan, but I have never had any last that long ;)

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tim...
http://www.mcknightguitars.com

I am not building fast enough right now to use up the glue before it expires. I go through CA quickly so I never have to worry about it. The little fridge would be really nice to have. But my shop is only 14'x16' and I am already crammed for space. I suppose I could store the glue in the house and just take it out to the shop when I need to use it.

Josh

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Josh House

Canadian Luthier Supply
http://www.canadianluthiersupply.com
https://www.facebook.com/canadianluthiersupply?ref=hl
House Guitars - Custom Built Acoustic Instruments.
http://www.houseguitars.com

josh

you are engendering proficiency envy!

having admired the photos of you work and then to learn you produce it in a cubby hole after 1 1/2 years of doing it is almost depressing.

please accept my congratulations!

michael mcclain