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I started bodying and have some questions.

1) How many times would I charge my pad to body a particular area for a session (Assume I am bodying only 1/3 of the back)? When am I done with an area? I have been stopping after the area has a nice shine to it. This requires about 3 charges, which last about 2 minutes each.

2) I read the Milburn tutorial and watched the Fernandez video several times this past weekend. I don’t see anything in them about sanding in between bodying sessions. Am I supposed to sand between bodying sessions? If so, what grit?

3) Milburn discusses a “stiffing” technique which is an alcohol charged pad applied to the guitar in straight lines. This is done after each bodying session to remove oil and to reduce ridging from the muneca. Is this necessary if I am “pulling over” (straight line patterns with the muneca that tend to flatten out the marks left by the muneca during the circular passes) and using naptha to remove oil. I use naptha before each bodying session.

4) What’s you technique for padding up to the bridge, fingerboard soundboard joint, or heel/side joint? These are tough areas. I tried wiping with a charged cloth 1” x 1”. This didn’t work that well for me and seemed to take off previous layers of shellac. I then tried a very small muneca with an angle to it that fits in tight corners. I used this and employed circular motions into the joints. This seems better, but wanted to see if there is something better.

5) How many bodying sessions do you typically lie down?

6) How do you get rid of the little specks that inadvertently happen? These haven’t been an issue because I have been sanding in between coats, but what do you do if it is your final session?


Aside from all of those questions , I think things are going well. I have done 3 bodying sessions and I have a very nice sheen. So much so, that I am thinking I am done, or almost??

Thanks,

Doug Ubele

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Guitars...One's too many...Twenty is not enough.

Doug,
Do have any picures?

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Dave Bland

remember...

"If it doesn't play in tune...it's just pretty wood"

1. recharge whenever you no longer see the ghost trail trailing behind the pad. You are done just before the area starts feeling soft. To learn when that is, you will end up putting on too much and it will get soft. C'est la vie. Give it a few days to harden up before the next session.

2. No sanding required if you are doing it right, except to remove any dust.

3. People argue that this pressure may, or may not, make the shellac harder. I have no opinion.

5. However many it takes. Depends on how thick you can get the shellac on in a session, and how thick you want the finish to be. The Milburn tutorial is a good start (6-8 sessions).

6. Polish it and call it "old timey", or sand with 2000 grit, and then buff out with a machine just like with a nitro finish (but be careful not to heat or buff through).

Doug.

On question 1. I believe you are doing ok. I don’t divide in to section per say. I start in an area and work my way across the body. A session for me is an entire back or top or one side. This for handling reasons.

On question 2. I lightly sand after every 4 complete body sessions with 320/400

On question 3. Yes stiffing is necessary for several reasons. It helps to level. It compresses the film and makes it harder and removes access oil and moisture I lightly stiff after every other session. I firm stiff during every polishing sessions.

On question 4. I don’t recommend that you glue up the neck, fret board, or bridge before finishing. Typically you want to finish them separately, then attach the bridge and neck. Scrapping away the finish in the areas to be glued. I made this mistake on my first. It is nearly impossible to keep the film from making a mess in the corners created by the obstructing components. Next time don’t install bridge or neck prior to finishing. That said pinch your muneca into a wedge shape to aid getting into corners. Bruce if you have already glued them down you will find that in the corners formed by the bridge and fret board that you will get a build up that hard level and may contain contaminations because the stiffing came to an abrupt stop in those areas. To sand them level you would have to sand cross grain and so tight to the bridge or fret board that is hard not to damage them. Been there, Done that.

On question 5. It will vary from wood to wood. Typically 8 -12 body sessions and 3-4 polish sessions.

On question 6. If the specks are cotton from the muneca, you need to change the cover more often to avoid this . I change covers after every session. If the speck is at the surface level a straight pin some times can pick it up. Then pad back over the area again. If the specks are dust particles. Then you may need to create a positive air flow. After carefully cleaning the work environment.

If you have been stiffing between each session then I am sure you have a nice sheen. However in my opinion in three sessions you have built only about 1/3 of the film depth you need. I recommend that you do at least 6 body sessions, and 3 polish sessions.

Hope this helps
Mp

Hi Mike. Here we go again! 2 things:

1) Can you explain the stiffing stage with some detail. I am not understanding this as much as I would like from the Milburn aticle. Something about an alcohol charged pad and wiping one way?? How do you do it.

2) What is a polishing session?

Thanks!

Doug Ubele

_________________
Guitars...One's too many...Twenty is not enough.

1.) Stiffing or spiriting is done by charging the pad with DA. There will be residual shellac left in the inner pad with one motion from one end to the other. Start in the middle and work to the edges. Keep a moderate firm stoke, never allowing the pad to drag or stick this levels and compacts the film. I do it pretty much the same way described in the Milburn tutorial. The DA melts the top of the shellac this is how it levels.
2.) Polishing or glazing is very much like boding with the exception of using a 1# cut shellac in a straight motion. This is still adding shellac but because it is a thinner cut it is glazing as it is applied. I would re-read the Glazing section in the Milburn tutorial. It is short but is very clear. The combo of Glazing and quick firm Stiffing or spiriting will bring out about 50% of the final luster buffing with a polishing compound such as Macquires #7 will get you to 80%. After the film has hardened for two-three weeks It can be buffed out to ultra high sheen.

One thing I just thought about and should mention, If you are masking off you bridge and fret board while French polishing. The DA will draw out adhesive from the tape and you will end up with a whitish gunk right in the seam of the bridge, fret board and top this is very hard to get rid of. You might try boding close to them then filling in with a fine artists china bristle brush to prevent the DA in the pad from pulling out the adhesive. Be sure not to use a synthetic brush as the DA will deform the bristles. Stiffing is another problem though.MichaelP38446.5772569444

I am not masking because I thought that would happen. I think I have down a technique for closing in on the brige and other tight joints. I use a pad the size of a large pea with which I form a corner. I then use circular motions into the area. This seems to work well.

How long do you wait between each session? Milburn says 1 hour, Fernandez says 48 hours.

Thanks,

Doug Ubele

_________________
Guitars...One's too many...Twenty is not enough.

I've found that a longer period between bodying sessions works better for me. I won't start a another bodying session for at least 4 hrs. I think it's too easy to remove the finish I've built up if I start too soon. I'm not in a hurry at this point, this is the final stages of the completed guitar and all that work can go for naught if the finish is poor. Remeber that our guitars are judged initially by their visual impact.
      I put good use into the in between sessions time by working on other things like bridges, nut, saddles and the "next guitar".
      I basically use the Millburn tutorial with modifications that work for me. I generally don't stiff off the guitar with alcohol but use naptha instead to remove the excess oil (unrefined walnut oil in my case).
        A little "elbow grease" is a good thing while bodying but if you break a sweat you are working too hard!

I wait 8 hrs min 24 if not in a time crunch...Notice I did not use the phrase "In a hurry" I always goof if I get in a hurry. I have an issue with using Naptha to stiff with. It will not melt the shellac, therfore it will not compress or level the film. Which is one of the tasks of stiffing. It will do a great job of removing last sessions oil. but I never find that to be an issue.

Mike the reason I don't "stiff off" is that I did all the "compressing" during the body session. Alcohol will not remove excess oil and for me just made it more difficult to get an even finish. If ten FP'ers compared their methods I think we'd get ten different methods. Eventually we all devise for ourselves what works for us and there ain't nothing wrong with that .

Your Right there. I did not mean to sound critical. I was just thinking out loud, more or less. I know several that don't believe that the film will compress but only be slightly removed durring stiffing. They also doubt the film is hardened by the process. I was tought by my grandfather to use the same muneca when stiffing that you use when padding. The residual shellac left in the inner pad is still being added during the stiffing but the alcohol also melts the the upper most shellac on the surface, levels and compresses the solids. I am not sure if harder is a good term, maybe denser is a better term, but that is the goal I was tought to achieve.MichaelP38447.5560185185

Didn't take it as being crtitical Mike we all do things basically the same but different in small ways. Heck us FP'ers gotta stick together!

According to Milburn, stiffing "is done after each bodying session to remove oil and to reduce ridging from the muneca."

Removing oil can be done with Naptha. As far as ridge reducing, isn't this accomplished with the "pulling over" technique (which is straight line patterns with the muneca that tend to flatten out the marks left by the muneca during the circular passes)?

The only difference between "pulling over" and "stiffing" is the amount of shellac, or lack there of. Pulling over is done with the same pad that you body with (a 2 lb. cut with a few drops of DA). Stiffing is done with DA only, but utilizes a previously used inner core which has trace amounts of shellac in it.

Therefore the only difference is that stiffing utilizes more alcohol. I have done this after bodying sessions 1 and 2 and find that I wind up with a duller finish. This is because I am removing oil, but I am worried that I am removing shellac as well. The bottom of the pad is yellow/orange, which is the color I'd expect from wither shellac or olive oil.

I'll keep experimenting.

Thanks!

Doug Ubele

_________________
Guitars...One's too many...Twenty is not enough.

Yes, the fact that it dulls is the removal of the oil. Till you start the Gazing or polishing don't worry your self with the sheen. Sheen is only the a product of a polished top section of the film. the solids are clear than you think but the top surface is dulled by the DA. When you ad more shellac it does not leave a dull layer under the new layer. Rember you are not adding layrs per say but are build a single film of compressed solids.

I use naptha to remove the oil, and I only end up with a dull surface where sanding scratches are not completely filled. That is quite useful, because I know I need to work that area more to bring it to a shine.

Once I get enough shellac built I attack it with alcohol... I try to do as much levelling as possible with it instead of any sandpaper - essentially I dilute the shellac with alcohol in the pad and then work very fast over the surface. It takes time, its like constantly spiriting off. But my buffing machine cannot touch it for clarity. I almost never wet sand, and mostly only level pores with sandpaper.

A customer brought over a Milburn a week or two ago. It was a very nice guitar. But the fact that it wasn't a "perfect" french polish was very reassuring!

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Instagram: @jfrenchluthier
Web: https://www.jfrenchguitars.com/

MichaelP and jfrench - Are you using oil when you level/polish? I guess the first question is, "Are you both accomplishing the same thing when you polish or level". I am assumming so.

The concern I have now is getting a sheen. When I use a lot of alcohol, as when "stiffing", I loose my sheen. When I get to the final 2 polishing sessions, they are going to be done with a 1 lb. cut of shellac. Specifically, I will add 1 lb. to the pad followed by a shot of DA. Do I add oil? If so, I will need to remove it.

The problem I see is that whatever I remove the oil with, either DA or Naptha, removes the sheen as well. How do I get the sheen back?

Thanks!!

Doug Ubele

_________________
Guitars...One's too many...Twenty is not enough.

You should start to get a Moderate sheen during Glazing process. The high sheen comes with the polish and buff out. Glazing is using 1# cut instead of 2# and in firm quick straight passes Siffing on the other hand is the leveling of the boding sessions, and is mostly DA or A and will dull the film. I never worry at all about the sheen till well into Glazing

Yes I use Oil during Gazing, but because the cut is now 1/2 the viscosity it was I need far less. maybe 1 drop per load up.

Doug I am getting the felling that after you finish stiffing you may be getting disapointed with the films apperance. Really don't get over conserned about sheen till well into at least the second glazing session.

Are you finished with 6-10 body sessions? In other words have you built up you film thickness to the depth you want?

If So then use the Glazing process described in the tutorial. If you have a work light over the work area you shold be able to see the change in focus of the light bulb reflection off the body of the work. It should go from just a blurr at the start of Glazing to a NEARLY but not yet focused image in two or three glazing sessions. This one of the ways you can tell if the glazing is going well. When the reflection is very focused then you are through glazing. If I remember correctly the Milburn tutorial speaks to this.

If you are still building film depth, relax and not worry too much about sheen yet. Take it one session at a time and understand that the high sheen starts with glazing and is refined with polishing compound and buffing.MichaelP38448.4847337963

hmm... I get a good shine with just alcohol and shellac, assuming its level and there are no sanding scratches which ruin it.

Lately when i am levelling with alcohol I use 3 drops of alcohol in the pad, then follow with one drop of shellac, a slight bit of oil, and then I work extremely fast over 1/4 of the top or back. It levels things pretty well.

Where are you getting your shellac from? I find it nearly impossible for it to be dull. Unless there are sanding scratches.

I am never using more than one drop of oil on the pad, and if I touch the guitar with 2000 grit sandpaper it looks dull until I've adequately shined it with alcohol and shellac.

If I sand with 2000 grit and try to buff the guitar, it remains dull. Sandpaper is the enemy, unless you are planning many more bodying sessions. The less you sand, the better off you'll be.

I don't mix up differnt lb cuts of shellac, I just decide how much alcohol I need to add to the pad on the fly.

Not sure how much this helps...

best wishes,
Joshua

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Joshua i think... that Doug is seeing the sheen dull out after Stiffing. This is normal. I too get a sheen with boding but it will dull with my i.e. Mibruns way of Stiffing. But the DA evaporates and all that is left is compacted solids. The fact that the top surface is dull after stiffing is of no concern to me at that point. Once my film is built and I start Glazing then I pay attention to the sheen. I look at it like this when you spray lacqure it is nice and shinny. When you level it is dull when you polish it is shinny. Same way with FP. when you add a new body session it is shinny, when I Stiff i.e. level it is dull. When I Glaze and polish it is shinny.

Dull is relitive. When I say dull I don't mean flat and very opaqe. There is still a light shine and some what glassy apearance. Just not a luster. If the film is apearing milky or very flat after stiffing then you may be moving too slow, but I would suspect that you would be sticking if that was the case. Doug can you post a close pic of the finish at the state you are concerned about. Maybe then I could tell you if you are over concerned or not.

Ok. Let me try to get a picture up. I am almost done my 4th bodying session. I plan on doing 6.

Yes, you're right, I am unhappy after I stiff because the shine goes away. I will accept this as a normal part of the process. I have to remember that most of the shine is probably the oil anyway.

I think I will skip the sandpaper because it looks like I have a nice level surface.

I got my shellac from woodworker's supply. It is J.E. Moser's. I do get a great shine from it. It just goes away a bit after I stiff with alcohol.

What polishing compound are you using and how are you applying it?

_________________
Guitars...One's too many...Twenty is not enough.

Normal...Wait till you ge deep into Gazing then you will smile