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Great suggestion Don! That would have solved everything.

I agree that Lance was between a rock and a hard place. I'm not sure what I would have done in the same situation. I think Lance took a balanced approach by "censoring" the photos, but still leaving them on the site.

I use quotes around "censor" because I think Lance was very fair about the way he did it. On other sites I've been on the pics would have been yanked or the whole thread would disappear.

And on some of those sites we wouldn't even be able to have this discussion about the political correctness of what was done.

In short, I agree with Don and I agree with Lance.

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Dave Rector
Rector Guitars

I thought the "black tape" was a good call too. Still left the pictures in
tact to show the guitar so that we can talk about the finish. Cause that is
all we really care about anyway. I don't give a rip that there is some
naked ladies on there. It sure is not making me lust. I think it is pretty
cool technique for sure. I would love to do the same thing someday as a
fun project. Put pics of your family or something and it would be a nifty
heirloom guitar.

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John Mayes
http://www.mayesluthier.com

[QUOTE=John Mayes]   I would love to do the same thing someday as a
fun project. Put pics of your family or something and it would be a nifty
heirloom guitar. [/QUOTE]

John - thats a killer idea! Images as far back as you can find, up to present day ..

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Lance@LuthiersForum.com

Dave,
I agree with you. I am glad Lance took the approach he did. I agree with Don. I will never post anything like this ever again. I will use a link. I just hope that if I find something controversal on the site sometime in the future it is met with the same ferver.

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Dave Bland

remember...

"If it doesn't play in tune...it's just pretty wood"

Hey One good thing...I am getting a wole month's worth of posts in just a few days! YEA!!!!!

_________________
Dave Bland

remember...

"If it doesn't play in tune...it's just pretty wood"

Not a chance Dave! We like picking on you

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Lance@LuthiersForum.com

Well I have held back on commenting on this thread also, here are my thoughts on the whole thing. I can see where Bruce is coming from. I’m 19, the less of this kind of stuff I see, the better. Whatever you want to call it mild porn or art, I’m better of without it. But I’m not saying that Dave should not have posted it, the finish is very interesting. I guess all I’m saying is that Lance did the right thing by censoring it, and that having the pics hosted somewhere else may be a good idea.
P.S. I don’t see this kind of stuff at the beach. Nor do I watch T.V with unclean content, at least I do my best not to.

I hope Mr. Dickey doesn’t feel to offended anymore.

[QUOTE=Colby Horton] I’m 19[/QUOTE]

What?!? Someone finally younger than me round here?

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John Mayes
http://www.mayesluthier.com

My taste in what I would want done or would do, probably not. Porn, no, not even close. I've seen porn and know it like the one justice of court said, this ain't it. Someone liked it and had it done as their expression of what they think art and taste is. Probably just for the shock value of it. That is a guitar and this site is about that and differing aspects of things. The main thing about what I got out of the thread is a way to do things in finish. Maybe someone will do something like it in an electric as a process and do different artwork and make a million. Hope so

Good solution Lance. John 3:17

See you guys along the trail.

Bruce's is NOT alone in his thoughts. When I registered, there were simple rules posted I agreed to. Short and general,IE: no cussing etc. That is "censorship" that I agreed to and appreciate. I'll call it "etiquette"

Even if one doesn't like those rules, they should still abide by them in respect of our gracious host, Lance. The spirit of the rules seemes to imply that Lance is trying to establish a cooperative community with least amount of abrasion. So using terms like the "vocal minority", "hissie fit", and "narrow mindedness" seem disproportionate. Seems to me Bruce was trying to bring us back into proper alignment with the rules. Here we are bullying him around.


My suggestion is that genuine apologies be made publicly or privately as the offense warrants. (Judicious use of winking emoticons, please be articulate, clear, and genuine)

Bruce has been unfairly targeted and has left the forum as a result. That's not a good thing. He seems to be a very honorable and valued member.

Dave, if you sign your posts with John 3:16, Don't bring disrepute to yourself or God, or stir up dissention just because most people agree with you. Place yourself into a position where no one can accuse you of any wrong doing. Again, Colossians 3 is the rule for those who name His name.

Let's move on with the original intent of what the forum was created to be. It's the best thing that's happened to most of us trying to pursue what we're passionate about, making guitars and talking with other luthiers.

I suspect that if everyone voiced their opinion, you might be surprised how many of us would rather not see the pictures in their original form. (I, like Lance, had my kids in the room with me when I opened the original post, and I had to do some fairly quick scrolling before they figured out what it was.) We may not all be vocal, but we may not be in the minority either.

I agree 100% with the comment that if I don't like it, the answer is for me to choose not to look. But that means I have to have enough information in advance to make that choice before I see it. In other words, it's rather difficult to "just not look" when you go to a forum that you believe doesn't contain this sort of thing and suddenly it jumps out at you unexpectedly. There was no warning whatsoever. That really takes away my ability to choose not to see it (and choose not to have my kids see it if they are in the room with me).

For me, the answer is not censorship. You all should be able to look at whatever you want to look at on the Internet (subject to Lance's overarching authority ). But I think it would be reasonable as a matter of common courtesy to people give some kind of warning that a thread contains this sort of thing. I certainly appreciate the fact that when we turn on the TV at home and a new show comes on, we now get a warning if the show contains adult themes, language, etc., so that we can choose whether or not to watch that stuff. It would not be difficult to add to the subject line something like "(warning: contains nudity)." Or if you are insistent that the nudity is really artistic and not pornographic, "(warning: contains really artistic and not pornographic nudity)." Or, as suggested earlier, post a link rather than a picture and warn everyone that the picture in the link contains nudity.

It isn't about censorship being thrust upon everyone by a vocal minority; it's about giving people enough information to make a choice before they see the pictures.

I think everyone should take a "chill pill". Although I really do like all the posts I'm getting from this topic.

Let's see... I did this on purpose, I am a bad christian, I am a bad person, I knew deep down I was causing trouble, The minority realy is the majority, the NEWBIES know more than the OWNER, I owe bruce an appology, I made bruce go away ( was it that easy to get rid if him?)( JUST KIDDING! ), What else am I?

Those of you without sin cast the first stone. Who among you can make that claim?

Are you people NUTS! It is a guitar, I am so awefully sorry for all the bad things that have come from this, I am SOOOO HAppy Lance put tape on the ...can I say... Nipples? Is that too offensive. You have got to be kidding...this is a joke right? you guys got together and just played a late April fools joke on me right? Close your eyes and tell me what you see...That's what's comming in the way of appologies. I have appologized at least SIX times already. How many more do you want? Lance is this for real? Hey first in 10,000...where does it rate in # of reads? Must be in the top ten anyway...

_________________
Dave Bland

remember...

"If it doesn't play in tune...it's just pretty wood"

I still Love ya Dave
You too Bruce where ever ya are!

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Lance@LuthiersForum.com

I once seen The Plazmatics and that all Windy O had on

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Lance@LuthiersForum.com

[QUOTE=LanceK] I still Love ya Dave
You too Bruce where ever ya are!

[/QUOTE] Thanks Lance! These guys are tuff, A! THANKS AGAIN! By the way did Gempler deliver?

_________________
Dave Bland

remember...

"If it doesn't play in tune...it's just pretty wood"

Not yet - but I get the shipping notice -

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Lance@LuthiersForum.com

All I have to say is WOW ...I can say it backwards
WOW......I can say it upside down MOM .....

and here I was thinking that those black markers were on the guitar!!!!

y'all have way better eyes than I do(and mine are dang good, being young and everything <g>), because I had to download the pics and enlarge them to make out anything naked on there. Honest! I saw the whole of the guitar, and not a bit of flesh. I really had to look around to see any nudity on there, and it is so very minimal.

For the record, I'd have never been able to help Dave figure this one out without the photos of the guitar. Guys, we can't start censoring stuff. We're here mostly because the MIMF is over censored and over regulated, right? Don't make Lance turn this into the same type of environment. We cannot begin to all agree on any one subject; we all have to give room. If soemthing bugs you, don't come back to the thread. It's that simple. Perhaps we need a warning in the thread's header, but that's it. Fair warning is fair warning.

I also don't think kids should be reading thsi forum, anyhow. I don't think any child under the age of 13-14 should be handling wood working tools on their own(I have the stiched scrars to prove why I think this way).

You want to remove some offending photos? Go take down those brazilian rosewood sides that are laminated to birch veneer. Now, THAT'S offensive <g>

[QUOTE=Mario]

You want to remove some offending photos? Go take down those brazilian rosewood sides that are laminated to birch veneer. Now, THAT'S offensive <g>[/QUOTE]

Now thats FUNNY!

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Lance@LuthiersForum.com

There are lots of things on the internet that I choose not to look at and if this is one of them then that is the choice that I make. I don't make that choice for anyone but myself and I teach my children why they should make the right choices (each one for themselves), even with them they will grow up to make choices for themselves. Ultimately I know I will have to answer for myself, for how I live my life, for the opportunities I have here to show what it truly means to be a Christ follower. If looking at this guitar causes anyone to stumble in their faith then by all means please do not look!! I do have a problem with sensorship in general because it does not change a society. If a society is going to change then it will change person by person from within each person and not from outside sensorship. I do think that everyone deserves the right say what they have to say as well as the right to disagree. Although I do not personally have a problem with the post itself, as a worship leader and as someone who wants everyone to experience God in the way that I have, I would rather not see "John 3:16" beneath the picture simply because it potentially may send mixed messages to those who believe, those who don't and those who are searching. So if you remove anything remove the reference to scripture.....as for the guitar, if looking at it causes me to think thoughts that I know I shouldn't, no one is holding a gun to my head and making me look!!

Wow, '70's flashback time. I knew a guitar player / artist that used to do
the same thing with his instruments (though not as professionally) back
in Wilmington Delaware. I can't remember his name but his band was
"Shakey Jake".
I would second the reccomendation to not alter it in any way if there's
vintage or celebrity ownership value involved.
On the censorship / porn issue; this is not porn by any stretch of the
imagination. I'd like to see more celebration of the human form, both
male and female, in this country rather than less. If we as Americans
could shed some of our inhibitions about such things, alot of very
important conversations, such as birth control and abortion, would be
much easier to have. It's nature, baby. Live with it.
-C

_________________
Freeborn Guitars
and home of BeauGuard©

Well, I've already said my bit on the nudity issue, so I'm not beating that dead horse anymore.

However, Mario mentioned something interesting --- the notion that kids under 13-14 should not be handling woodworking tools. (And Mario has the scar to prove it.    ) This strikes me as a totally different issue than the nudity issue, and it's an interesting one, so I hope ya'll don't mind if I add my two cents.

Woodworking goes back a long way in my family. My dad was a carpenter, and so was his dad (my grandpa Pat), and so was his dad (my great granpa Chauncey). And they all knew they were going to be carpenters from a young age --- each of them would go to the job site with their dads from the time they were very young. By the time my dad was 14, he had completed his apprenticeship and was working full-time as a carpenter.

I can't remember the first time I went with my dad to the job site, because it's something I always remember doing. I do recall making 50 cents an hour when I was seven hauling boards for him at the job site. When I was 12, I spent the summer hanging shingle molding and setting doors. When I was 14, I spent a summer nailing roofs. The other summers were all spent working construction to a greater or lesser degree, although I don't remember them as clearly.

Unlike my ancestry, I did not ultimately become a carpenter. Air conditioned college classrooms (and ultimately offices) were much more appealing than nailing a roof in August in the Nevada heat. But I still do plenty of woodworking.

My sons also do woodworking, and none of them are anything close to 13-14. My oldest is 10. He recently completed his first guitar --- a dreadnought with Padauk back and sides and an Englemann top, which plays, sounds and looks every bit as good as anything I have made. Other than a couple of splinters, there were no injuries and no close calls. I made him use hand tools primarily (which is how I do it anyway), but there were a few power tool tasks that he handled very well. I stepped in and took over whenever he appeared to struggle or seem uncomfortable, but that was pretty rare. I previously posted pics of the work in process, and I'll post some pics of his completed guitar as soon as I have some time this week.

Having been through the process of learning to work with wood and tools (including power tools) at a young age, and having helped my own boys through that process, I respectfully disagree with the notion that kids that young should never touch a woodworking tool. Obviously, you take extra precautions when your kids are involved. You watch them like a hawk every second, and you teach them new tools and new techniques a little at a time, only giving them the next thing when they are ready for it. But at the end of the day, I suspect a carefully supervised kid in my shop would have less injuries (both in quantity and severity) than if they spent a similar amount of time playing baseball or soccer.

Ironically, while my boy was working on his guitar one day, a kid in our neighborhood was climbing a tree; he fell down and broke his arm. A few months later, my boy was working in the shop again, and the same kid fell out of the same tree and broke the same arm. That's not to say a tablesaw is safer than a tree. But it is to say that, IMHO, someone who works with proper instruction, proper respect for the tool, and proper regard for safety will be much safer in the shop than in a tree, where they would likely have no instruction, supervision, or regard for safety. (It was at leat true for those two days that the kid fell out of the tree.)

I can offer generations of experience to back the proposition that, if a child is taught properly, it is amazing what they can handle. My kids have never had any serious injury in the shop (splinters don't qualify as serious injuries). I never had any serious injuries as a kid on the jobsite, and to my knowledge neither did my dad, my grandpa Pat, or my great grandpa Chauncey.

My ten-year-old's completed guitar is undoubtedly the most amazing thing he has ever done, and I would even go so far as to say it probably tops anything most grown men have ever made. (I know, I'm just a proud dad, but in all honesty most grown men haven't ever made something as challenging as a guitar, let alone a good one.) I hope and expect he will go on to many bigger and better challenges in his life, but I also expect that as he does so, he will have a deeper and deeper appreciation for just how great this accomplishment was at the age of 10.

You couldn't pay me enough to go back in time and take that away from him, telling him to spend his Saturdays playing video games instead because woodshops are too dangerous. I would give the same answer even if something had happened and left him with stitches and a scar like Mario's --- you haven't lived if you don't have a few scars.   

Man... I think we ought to put this thread to bed.... We have all said our peace and it looks like we are not going to make a social progress (tastes great / less filling, etc.) .... So I for one vote that we kill this thing and get back to the business of guitar building.

Brock Poling38446.7368171296

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

I agree, kill it.

And someone please call Bruce and tell him to come back.

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Dave Rector
Rector Guitars