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Just thinking. Would it be a problem to make the OLF SJ into a baritone - 27.5" scale?

I believe a baritone is tuned a whole step below D-G-C-F-A-D with the same strings, so there isn't anymore tension. Is that right? No need to change the bracing then.

Would it be made as a 14th fret model and move the bridge back one inch?

What else am I missing?

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"An adventure is only an inconvenience rightly considered. An inconvenience is an adventure wrongly considered." G. K. Chesterton.

Steve let me look this weekend to see if the X-braces can be placed to work on 27.5" scale.MichaelP38974.7353935185

Steve,
I wonder if moving the bridge a bit back to mid-lower bout could give you more volume?
Are you looking to keep the same shape of the OLF-SJ?
Why not a 15 fret to body? and just move the bridge a little?

Sorry for all the questions, these are things that interest me also.

Wade

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Wade
Nashua, NH
http://www.wadefx.com

Steve,

Another way is to take a 12 fret clear of the body design and turn it into a 14 fret clear of the body baritone. You will find a scale length that works as a baritone with little to no change to the bridge position or bracing. For instance my baritone Treebeard is based on a 12 fret 25.75" scale and becomes a 14 fret 28.9" baritone.

Depending on the scale length and string gauges you use you can tune baritones down to a number of different degrees. You are right that the aim is to keep overall string tension as on a more normal scale guitar. On my 28.9" baritone with lights (0.012"-0.053") you go down a step D-D, with mediums (0.013"-0.056") you go down C-C and with heavies B-B.

_________________
Dave White
De Faoite Stringed Instruments
". . . the one thing a machine just can't do is give you character and personalities and sometimes that comes with flaws, but it always comes with humanity" Monty Don talking about hand weaving, "Mastercrafts", Weaving, BBC March 2010

I redesigned the bracing all together, as just shifting my existing pattern didnt really look right, it was simply too far back from the soundhole. So I ahd to close up the X to 90 degrees, and make the bridge wings a little longer, and it seems to have worked out fine. A for tuning baritones, heres what some big names do ....

Don Ross, Beneteau Jumbo bari non cut Padauk, 28.3 I think, 14 fret, 16-65 gauge, lots of tunings, but anywhere from low B to even lower G on a good day (as he put it)

Pat Methany, Manzer baritone, 28 inch 14 fret venetian Koa, baritone gauge strings (like 16-70 ish) although his modified nashville tuning I am sure he must change the D and G gauges to smaller in order to tune that high. Tuned A D G C E A for One Quiet Night.

Bruce Cockburn, Karol Baritone, 28 inch non cut Mahogany, strung with Daddario EXP baritones, 16-70, tuned it to A E A D E A for the tune Peace March on the Life Short Call Now CD.

the thing about going to bigger strings for baris is the change in tone, for a given note. For instance, in a B-B standard interval tuning, a std guitar A chord shape becomes an E - play the E on a std guitar, then on a baritone using the longer scale, and bigger strings, and the change in tone is very noticeable, even though the notes are all the same - it seems to become more piano like in timbre, and definitely sounds deeper and darker. I dont see the point in using lights and a 28-29 inch scale length just to tune to D-D .. you might as well use Meds on a std guitar, it will be way easier to play as far as stretches and intervals go.

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Tony Karol
www.karol-guitars.com
"let my passion .. fulfill yours"

Tony,
Please tell me you have some photos of your bracing for the baritone!
-j.

_________________
“If God dwells inside us like some people say, I sure hope He likes enchiladas, because that's what He's getting”
-jack handy

[QUOTE=Wade S.] Steve,
I wonder if moving the bridge a bit back to mid-lower bout could give you more volume?
Are you looking to keep the same shape of the OLF-SJ?
Why not a 15 fret to body? and just move the bridge a little?

Sorry for all the questions, these are things that interest me also.

Wade[/QUOTE]
Wade,
I have no idea about the volume.
I am looking to keep the same shape as the OLF SJ. I like the shape and size, and I already am tooled up for it.
The 15 fret idea is pretty interesting.
25.5 scale to fret 14 = 11.35"
27.5 scale to fret 15 = 11.56"
24.9 scale to fret 14 = 11.09"
The change in bridge placement is about the same as going from standard scale to short scale, although in the opposite direction. It might make it hard to find a case for it.

_________________
"An adventure is only an inconvenience rightly considered. An inconvenience is an adventure wrongly considered." G. K. Chesterton.

Steve,
During my last build, a few folks here encouraged me to place the bridge more at the center of the lower bout and it seems to have increased the volume. Especially in the lower and midrange.
Most of my guitars are “non standard” shapes and sizes so I gave up trying to find hard shell cases for them. There is always a gig bag that it fits into.
If you weigh out the potential volume from the bridge move and the power and sustain from the longer scale, I think the case size issue is minor.
Either way, I’d love to see what you come up with!

Wade

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Wade
Nashua, NH
http://www.wadefx.com

Sorry no pix of the actual top braced up, but here is the 29 inch pattern.

_________________
Tony Karol
www.karol-guitars.com
"let my passion .. fulfill yours"

[QUOTE=TonyKarol]
the thing about going to bigger strings for baris is the change in tone, for a given note. For instance, in a B-B standard interval tuning, a std guitar A chord shape becomes an E - play the E on a std guitar, then on a baritone using the longer scale, and bigger strings, and the change in tone is very noticeable, even though the notes are all the same - it seems to become more piano like in timbre, and definitely sounds deeper and darker. I dont see the point in using lights and a 28-29 inch scale length just to tune to D-D .. you might as well use Meds on a std guitar, it will be way easier to play as far as stretches and intervals go.[/QUOTE]

I like to play my 28.9" scale bari in D-D with lights from time to time. It sounds (and feels) way different from a shorter scale guitar tuned D-D with mediums, probably for the reasons you so eloquently put forward above. It just makes bari's such versatile instruments.

Actually my favourite is to use mediums and go C-C and the various open tunings around here. B-B and A-A are fun too but acoustically the 6'th string never trully works to my ear - you can put the bigger ones on but it just doesn't cut it imho. Plug it in and it's a different story.

_________________
Dave White
De Faoite Stringed Instruments
". . . the one thing a machine just can't do is give you character and personalities and sometimes that comes with flaws, but it always comes with humanity" Monty Don talking about hand weaving, "Mastercrafts", Weaving, BBC March 2010

I may have to try that out Dave, maybe with Meds .. interesting what you learn, it just seems to me that it wouldnt be that good with lights (I am not a big fan even on std guitars). I am with you on the B and A though, i thought going longer would help the A out, but I think it is more a function of body size and resonances than scale. I like the way B works on mine, A is certainly pushing it.

_________________
Tony Karol
www.karol-guitars.com
"let my passion .. fulfill yours"

I'm partial to cedar, but I'm wondering if it is appropriate for a baritone.
Would you stick with sitka or adirondack instead? Would you make the braces a tad taller?

I'm just wondering as it goes through alternate tunings and different string gages if a top that is more stiff and hard would be a better idea?

_________________
"An adventure is only an inconvenience rightly considered. An inconvenience is an adventure wrongly considered." G. K. Chesterton.

[QUOTE=SteveS] I'm partial to cedar, but I'm wondering if it is appropriate for a baritone.
Would you stick with sitka or adirondack instead? Would you make the braces a tad taller?

I'm just wondering as it goes through alternate tunings and different string gages if a top that is more stiff and hard would be a better idea?[/QUOTE]

Steve,

All 3 of mine were done with Euro spruce tops. Currently being in love with the sound of my cedar/maple Grand Concert I my well give a cedar topped bari a go. Much more important I think are the back/side woods you go with. If you are going for really low tuning then you are fighting against the sound getting too muddy. You want something that supports good note seperation. I've homed in on Cuban mahogany which works really well - but I am a sucker for this wood anyway. Dave Berkowicz has an interestin piece about bari woods on his website. He advocates mahogany, walnut and koa.

I can't emphasise more that you don't need to be "beefing" up braces to cope with more stress from string tension. The string gauges you chose will go with the scale length and tuning and should be in the range of a normal guitar. The considerations are having the bracing to support the body size and getting the top really responsive - same as you would building a jumbo or 12 fretter fingerstyle guitar.

_________________
Dave White
De Faoite Stringed Instruments
". . . the one thing a machine just can't do is give you character and personalities and sometimes that comes with flaws, but it always comes with humanity" Monty Don talking about hand weaving, "Mastercrafts", Weaving, BBC March 2010

Dave,
OK - I hear you on the bracing and top selection - treat it just like a standard build.

I'm thinking about going with bubinga on the back and sides. How do yo think that would work? I checked out Dave's site and could not find any info on wood selection for a baritone.

_________________
"An adventure is only an inconvenience rightly considered. An inconvenience is an adventure wrongly considered." G. K. Chesterton.

[QUOTE=SteveS] Dave,
OK - I hear you on the bracing and top selection - treat it just like a standard build.

I'm thinking about going with bubinga on the back and sides. How do yo think that would work? I checked out Dave's site and could not find any info on wood selection for a baritone. [/QUOTE]

Steve,

The perils of updating your website His new one looks very professional but on his old one there was lots of stuff about baritones and his views on woods. Maybe it's hidden in the downloads on his "news" page.

I've never built with bubinga so can't really say. Others here my have a better view. The first bari I built used Brazilian Rosewood but it was a light one (in color and density) and worked OK, but I hear much better clarity and piano-like sounds in the two Cuban mahogany ones I made since. Cedar/ mahogany might make a good bari. I bet Shane has some killer cedar tops that would be perfect.

Why not e-mail Dave and see what he thinks - he has a lot of bari building experience. Or maybe Tony K has experience with bubinga and will chip in.
Dave White38975.7255555556

_________________
Dave White
De Faoite Stringed Instruments
". . . the one thing a machine just can't do is give you character and personalities and sometimes that comes with flaws, but it always comes with humanity" Monty Don talking about hand weaving, "Mastercrafts", Weaving, BBC March 2010

This is a carryover from another thread, but it still fits.
My original thinking was that the tension and length should be about the same if using the correct strings and guage for each purpose, but according to the D'Addario website, the baritone string tension adds up to almost 240 lbs total of tension. Thats a heckuva lot more than the typical 5 string tension of 160-180 lbs.Thats an increase in stress of almost 50%.
Maybe its not reality or something, but its right on the companies spec sheets.
D'Addario Tension Specs
Let me know if I'm reading these incorrectly.
Specifically the EXP 23's for a baritone string.
Thanks
-j.

_________________
“If God dwells inside us like some people say, I sure hope He likes enchiladas, because that's what He's getting”
-jack handy

J,

I posted my view on the double X thread.

_________________
Dave White
De Faoite Stringed Instruments
". . . the one thing a machine just can't do is give you character and personalities and sometimes that comes with flaws, but it always comes with humanity" Monty Don talking about hand weaving, "Mastercrafts", Weaving, BBC March 2010

J Brown,
I think you might have done something wrong - either that or I'm messed up.

I ran through the calculations. Here is what I found based on that site and doing the calcs.

Increasing from a 25.5 to a 27.5 scale length, keeping the same diameter string at the same pitch increased tension 16.3%.

Increasing from a 25.5 to a 27.5 scale length, keeping the same diameter string dropping pitch 1 whole step decreased tension 7.6%.

_________________
"An adventure is only an inconvenience rightly considered. An inconvenience is an adventure wrongly considered." G. K. Chesterton.

J Brown,
I think you messed up in reading the chart - you can't do that for a baritone because the tension on the chart is calculated on a 25.5" scale length. To get the tension for a baritone, you have to do that calculations. SteveS38975.7684953704

_________________
"An adventure is only an inconvenience rightly considered. An inconvenience is an adventure wrongly considered." G. K. Chesterton.

For Daddario EXP 23s, J brown is on the right track. The package back lists the B-B tensions for 29.75 scale, and it comes out to 233 lbs. Same strings at 28 inch is about 200, or about 25 lbs or so more than meds on a 25.4 guitar. I adjust the X brace height accordingly when building.

I have built with bubinga (but not baritones), it would be OK on a bari, I mean any wood will work, but I am thinking that the mahogany/walnut/koa choices are likely better for the tone. I built with a lighter weight set of EI rw, and it worked pretty well, but personally I think I liked the tone of the mahogany better.

_________________
Tony Karol
www.karol-guitars.com
"let my passion .. fulfill yours"

Thank you for the wood recommendations. Do you think Oregon Myrtle would work as well as koa/mahogany/walnut?


I check my calculations based on the site the J Brown posted - Here is the spread sheet. I now see that the length used is 29.75". The tension I get at that length is 204lb. If anyone wants the spread sheet, let me know and I'll email it to you.

_________________
"An adventure is only an inconvenience rightly considered. An inconvenience is an adventure wrongly considered." G. K. Chesterton.

Any errors in my calculations above? I've never done that before and am wondering if I missed something.
Thanks.

_________________
"An adventure is only an inconvenience rightly considered. An inconvenience is an adventure wrongly considered." G. K. Chesterton.

[QUOTE=SteveS] Any errors in my calculations above? I've never done that before and am wondering if I missed something.
Thanks.[/QUOTE]

Steve,

Yes - those tensions look right. With bari's decide on your scale length and the tuning you want, then you can pick the best gauge strings. Baris can be anything from 26" to 30"+ scale length and tuned down anywhere from D-D to G-G so just because D'Addario sell a set of "baritone strings" it doesn't mean that "one size fits all".

_________________
Dave White
De Faoite Stringed Instruments
". . . the one thing a machine just can't do is give you character and personalities and sometimes that comes with flaws, but it always comes with humanity" Monty Don talking about hand weaving, "Mastercrafts", Weaving, BBC March 2010

Thanks Dave.


OK - mahogany, koa and walnut work well for back and sides. Would myrtle work well also?

_________________
"An adventure is only an inconvenience rightly considered. An inconvenience is an adventure wrongly considered." G. K. Chesterton.

Steve,

Sorry, but I haven't built with myrtle either. Peterm built a guitar recently in myrtle maybe he can comment on how the back/sides of this guitar work in termes on note separation and clarity or compare it's properties to those of mahogany, koa and walnut. Or you might pm him.

_________________
Dave White
De Faoite Stringed Instruments
". . . the one thing a machine just can't do is give you character and personalities and sometimes that comes with flaws, but it always comes with humanity" Monty Don talking about hand weaving, "Mastercrafts", Weaving, BBC March 2010