Official Luthiers Forum!

I've been reading through the kinkead book. It spured a few questions.

1. Kinkead says if you don't have a go-bar system and a dish don't worry bout it, just make the back & top flat. My question is does it matter whether or not the back or top is rounded. Is the rounding just asthetic or does it provide superior acoustics?

2. What do you folks think of the Kinkead book? I'll hold my opinion until I see what you fellas think.

I'm just looking for input. I have the Cumpiano book and "The Luthier's Handbook" but I haven't gotten to them yet.

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nay

My blogs
Hand Made Gutar
Woodworker++

IMO putting an arch in your back makes it stronger and putting an arch in a top makes it both stronger and makes it sound alot better. The old spanish classical builders discovered this a long time ago.

Before you start making sawdust read Campiano's book. He puts an arch in his tops without use of dishes or go bar decks.

Go bar decks are useful even without dished forms. I built my current classical using Campiano as a guide and still found the go bar deck useful for brace glue up.kiwigeo38977.6083449074

An arch on the top and back will help prevent splitting of the wood as humidity changes.
I still build without a dish, and I cut my braces to the arch that I want, then use deepthroat clamps to bend the plates to conform to the braces. This method works fine for me. Bowls just make it easier, and probably more consistant.

Al

I do the same as Al does. I will be building a go-bar deck very soon though, just for the extra consistancy it gives.

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Dave Rector
Rector Guitars

i'm also in the go bar camp. my shop has a low ceiling and i have a high bench so i just screwed a piece of plywood to the joists above the bench and bought a bunch of $1 wooden dowels. cheap and dirty, but it works great.
before building my first guitar i made the dishes and haven't regretted the time. now there's a bunch of places to buy them so if you've got some cash, that would save you some time.
about the book, i've read it and find myself mixed. it is nice to see some of the pictures of the process, though more and more those things are available on the net. even checking out the 'shop tour' at 10 or 20 builder's sites is really helpful.
apart from the building process, i was surprised by how heavy he seemed to be building. big braces, thick bridge plate, a whole bunch of encouragement to tap tune (which he never explains) and then uses a 1.5 mm pieceo of wood for a pick gaurd which i think would obliterate whatever was achieved through all the tapping anyway. so i guess some of this stuff i found to be a bit out of line with most of the building you'll read about on this site.
in favour of the the book, though, is that he avoids getting into piles of equipment that most first time (or even 5th time) builders are not sure they want to committ to. he's also included guitar plan's (overbuilt in my opinion). but there is something nice about one stop shopping for someone deciding if they want to give it a try.
in the end i agree with martin. read cumpiano as a primer instead. but seriously, look at all the web sites you have time for and you'll soon see that even bill would likely make a bunch of changes if he were writing it again.
phil

I really like the Kinkead book. I use it and the Cumpiano book. The photos in Kinkead's book are really, really good. I also studied the Sloane book and Jim Wiliams book. I use something from all of them, but I take Kinkead to the shop with me every time I'm out there because it's a good pictoral reference.

Ron

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OLD MAN formerly (and formally) known as:

Ron Wisdom

Somewhere in the middle of Arkansas......

I'm with Ron - Cumpiano is the superior text, but Kinkead is a great
companion just for the pictorial reference alone. I did my acoustic
opposite of most other people - I don't have a go-bar deck, but I did
make a radius dish. I used (full) paint cans for clamping pressure in lieu
of go-bars. Use what you got...

And to the original question about the arch, I agree that it's best to put an
arch in, if for no other reason that to give the wood more room for
seasonal changes without cracking.

Good luck!

Jay

I haven't read Kinkead's book.

As others have said, the arch reduces the likelihood of wood splitting. If your top or back is flat, and humidity drops, the wood has no choice but to split. So you are taking a big chance without the radius.

It is also a chance that is completely unnecessary to take. Radius dishes and go-bar decks are among the cheapest and most useful tools a luthier can have. For less than $25 worth of MDF (one 4x8 sheet of 1" thick MDF) you can build four very sturdy radius dishes, each 2" thick at the outer edge.   It takes only a few hours to make a set of dishes, including the time it takes to make the router jig. Pick up a couple 6"x48" sanding belts from harbor freight (real cheap) and glue them on a couple of the dishes. For less than $35 and a few hours worth of time, you have a complete set of radius dishes. If you're lazy, the forum sponsors sell dishes reasonably cheap --- I think they're around $75 or $80 each. They also have sandpaper big enough to cover the whole dish in one fell swoop --- a bit more expensive than the Harbor Freight sanding belt option, but a nice upgrade if you can swing it. Given how cheap and easy they are to build, there's just no excuse not to have radius dishes.

Same with go-bar decks. I think I am in mine about $75, including the go-bars. IMHO, fiberglass rods are better than the wooden dowels and they are very cheap.

Thanks for the info guys. I appreciate it. I'm almost finished with the Kinkead book. I started it first because it came with plans but now, instead of building a kinkead. I'm thinking I'm going to find some D18 plans and base my guitar off that. Like others have said, I think the kinkead book will be a valuable pictorial guide. From a brief flip through the Cumpiano book will be better.

I'm definately going to put an arch in. I haven't decided on using a radius dish and go-bar set yet. Thanks everyone.

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nay

My blogs
Hand Made Gutar
Woodworker++

I build with a dish 15' on back and 24' on top, but I am surprised at the beutiful guitars built by some who don't. Olson doesn't use an arched top and it's hard to argue with his success.

After you read his book, go to Cumpiano's web site. He has a lot of updates and revisions to his book. Plus, you get to see what he has been up to for the last twenty + years.

Dean

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Dean

I radius everything and use a go-bar deck for clamping. But, if you radius your braces, you can just clamp the back and top to the braces using Klemsia clamps (substitute generic for brand name) and transfeer the arch to the plates that way. I built a guitar this way in February during a class, without a go-bar in sight.   I don't see any reason to work without arching the plates.

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Jim Kirby
kirby@udel.edu

Great advice above. I find that the two books are complemetary, especially for a beginning builder. Cumpiano's book is filled with detail, some of which is difficult to digest the first time around. I found Kinkead's book was really good at explaining complex issues with a photograph of two. They sit side by side on my bookshelf.

I am using a homemade go-bar deck and sanding bowls and amquite happy with the results. I also really like the advice of 'using what you have'. The craft of guitar building seems to have many methods and I'm impressed with theh open-mindedness and willingness to swap tips that come about here.

--Jim

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Jim Howell
Charlotte, NC

I got the Cumpiano book and still haven't read passed the neck chapter, it is heavy reading for my pea brain!

I'll agree with Todd since my skills improved beyond my wildest dreams since i joined the OLF that you could just save money by hanging out here and search the archives or just watch the daily threads, everything will be covered in a matter of days anyway!

I agree that the OLF and other forums are a great resource for the noob builder, but it is still nice to have a few books at hand. If nothing else, a book will introduce the raw novice to the process and also teach them the language of the craft. This in turn allows participation on a more confident level and the ability to take more from the experience.

In my opinion, Kinkead does a very good job of breaking the process down to it's core basics. His pictorial layout simplifies each step and his easy going approach removes some of the intimidation ones own mind can weave into the task if left to it's own devises, especially after absorbing a more comprehensive manual.

Having said that, Cump/Nats book is based upon sound woodworking practises skillfully applied to guitar making, and then explained to the reader in the assumption that he, or she, is a novice woodworker and only a budding student of guitar building at best.

I guess it is fair to say that Tradition and Tech is a little outdated, especially when it is being compared to the process that most have adopted today, but not in the total scheme of things.

The true value of this book lay in the fact that it not only directs the reader through each step in process, but it also attempts to direct them on the correct application of the tools required to achieve the task at hand.

Out dated or not, I think it is fair to say that, for the novice, Tradition and Tech remains the definitive text on guitar building still to this day. If you are just starting out like me, I would suggest that both books are worth your money and your time to digest.

After all, you can have both for less than 1/2 the price of a good Adi top and you can read them both in less time than it would take to replace that top if you stuff it up through bad practise.

Who knows, if you take the time to fully understand both, you may just get good enough, after you have a few under your belt, to be able to do complete justice to some of the great tonewoods being made available to us here at the OLF.

Cheers

Kim

Each book has its pro's and con's....I thought I would just start building from 1 book ...So i bought Cumpianos book but things started to worry me like the no outside mold factor and a few other things that looked complicated to me...but it will still be my main reference book because I basically have mainly hand tools so I'll need to rely on this book a lot.
I looked at kinkeads book and will use that also for some ideas...
But for me Robbie O'briens dvd puts it all together in a way i feel comfortable with and understand....This is basically the construction method i will follow...highly recomend this dvd

Grant,

Campiano, Jim Williams and a few others build using the open method with a workboard. I do too....there are pros and cons with both open method and using external molds. I like to keep an open mind so will eventually try mold and then decide which method I prefer.

One of the great things about luthiery is that there isnt a single standard method of building a good guitar and there are as many approcahes to solving problems as there are luthiers.

Cheers

Great information everyone!

I hadn't thought about instructional DVDs. I may take a look at some of those as well. I subscribed to the OLF last week so I may put some of those supplier coupons to work on instruction before materials

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nay

My blogs
Hand Made Gutar
Woodworker++

Kim, i agree with what you say, i also still have my Cumpiano book close by, i just find it difficult to read, i'll let my English improve first!

Nathan, I agree the instructional DVDs are a great learning tool.Check out John Mayes site and Robbies.That and all the help here at OLF and some other forums plus the books mentioned and you should have plenty to get started! Good luck and have fun with it.

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Anderson Guitars
Clearwater,Fl. 33755

1. The dome is for added strength. I think I read something by Cumpiano one time where he said that It was better to build a well fitted and jointed flat top than a poorly fitted and jointed dome top. But I do not think He was intending to say that a flt top was equal to a dome top, Just that it was better to build well constructed flat than to miss fit domed.

Thank you for the compliment Grant. I am glad you are finding my DVD useful!
Happy Building!

It would appear that not many in here agree that arching a top improves the sound of the guitar. Am I alone on this one?

I agree with you Martin.