Official Luthiers Forum!

I am gluing binding and purfling on my second guitar. On this guitar, both binding (.08 x 1/4") and purfling (.043 x 1/4") are wood. I just glued the first half and after pulling the tape back after 2 hours, I have a lot of gaps between the either the binding and purfling or the purfling and plate. I have 2 questions:

1) How do I avoid this? - I used that blue 3M tape for "clamping" the binding in place. I made a good effort during gluing to push and hold before taping. I bent the binding on my Fox bender which resulted in a terrific fit, but not my purfling.

2) How do I fix the gaps? - How do I close up these gaps?

Thanks,

Doug

P.S. - I am baffled because on my first, I didn't have any gaps. On that guitar I used plastic binding and herringbone purfling. I would think this would be harder...

_________________
Guitars...One's too many...Twenty is not enough.

3M blue tape has way too much stretch in it to insure this will not happen. The spring back in the binding over came the grip and stiffness of the tape. If you are going to use tape to tie down the binding use the binding tape that Stewmac and LMI sells it is a much stiffer tape, almost no stretch because it is a heavy paper backing.

How to fix the gaps depends on how much gap and the type of binding/purflingsMichaelP38992.4998263889

I use painters masking tape, and LOADS of it!!!

any little gaps can be CAed later.

_________________
My soundclick xx luthier blog xx luthier soundclick

Doug I use [edit: filament tape] that HomeDepot sells. It's about 3/4" wide and is very strong.

PM me with your email address I've got a set of binding instructions all written up and illustrated that I would be happy to share with you if you are interested.

Anthony Z38992.9507407407

Thanks guys.

Michael - Do you know where I can get that kind of tape locally. I'd hate to make a special order on tape......the shipping will be more than the tape.

martinedwards - Can you detail how I would CA these gaps. I can't remove the gap by pushing....the dried glue has everything stiffenned up. I wuold imagine I would have to fill them. The worst one is about 2 inches long and about .020" wide.

Thanks

_________________
Guitars...One's too many...Twenty is not enough.

Doug, what did you use to glue the binding with? Titebond? CA?

I don't. you might check with local Auto detailer supply houses. It is made by 3M for StewMac and LMI but I don't know the product number.

Doug, THIS is what I use.
IT works great for holding the bindings down while wicking in CA.

_________________
Support the OLF! Bookmark our STEWMAC link Today!
Lance@LuthiersForum.com

[QUOTE=dubell] Thanks guys.

Michael - Do you know where I can get that kind of tape locally. I'd hate to make a special order on tape......the shipping will be more than the tape.

martinedwards - Can you detail how I would CA these gaps. I can't remove the gap by pushing....the dried glue has everything stiffenned up. I wuold imagine I would have to fill them. The worst one is about 2 inches long and about .020" wide.

Thanks[/QUOTE]

.02 wide and 2" long I would vote to rout off and re bind. I know you did not want to hear that but .02 is a lot of gap to fill. Worse if the gap is between the binding and purfling

I agree with Michael on both posts. Get some of the LMI binding tape, you won't be sorry. And, .020 is an awfully big gap, especially when it is 2" long. I would route it off and start over, this time using the better tape.

_________________
Dave Rector
Rector Guitars

[QUOTE=dubell] Can you detail how I would CA these gaps. I can't remove the gap by pushing....the dried glue has everything stiffenned up. I wuold imagine I would have to fill them. The worst one is about 2 inches long and about .020" wide.
[/QUOTE]
No Idea how big 0.02" is!!!!

what's that in mm?

Any I've CAed have been finger squeezable......

_________________
My soundclick xx luthier blog xx luthier soundclick

near .5mm

Some of the tape you guys are recommending look really tacky......Are you having trouble when you pull the tape off and having fibers come up off the soundboard?

Thanks

P.S. - I will post some pictures tonightdubell38992.6033912037

_________________
Guitars...One's too many...Twenty is not enough.

Doug,

Seal your soundboard with shellac before you bind. This will eliminate that problem.

_________________
Jimmy Caldwell
http://www.caldwellguitars.com

skim coat with shellac prior to channeling avoids tear out.

I used low tack masking tape to start off, and AR glue, to allow plenty of time to bind and purfle at leisure.

As I AR'ed the binding, I left the glue to settle on the wood for 30 seconds before glueing to the guitar. It seems to yield a better grab.

Low tack masking tape does stick to the top and sides really nicely, and doesn't pull up many fibres at all.

Once the guitar has been tacked up, I then wrapped the entire guitar in bandages... yup, you heard me...

In my humble opinion, sealing up the large gaps with dust and epoxy doesn't work (for me, anyway) and looks obvious when the guitar is finished..for example with Rosewood, the gaps that are filled look lighter.

I would re-rout and start again.





Sam Price38992.614375

Good suggestions -- just thought I'd add one more.

I had a frustrating time with binding gaps, regardless of the tape I used (even the LMI tape) because I was bending my sides and binding on a hot pipe. Getting everything to match the exact desired shape was just about impossible.

This was one reason why I started using a bending mold and heating blanket. Now the sides and the binding are bent in the same mold, the binding snugs up nicely in the binding channel, and even blue 3M tape is sufficient to close the voids between the binding and the top or back. No more worries.

Best,

Michael

_________________
Live to Play, Play to Live

I know someone who very successfully used cheap filament tape and Titebond for his bindings. He used the cheapest tape he could find, because it has fewer filaments (don't need more for strength in this case), and the adhesive is less agressive than on the premium stuff. It's still plenty strong, though. It's widely available, too.

One suggestion...you'll want to have all your strips ready before you begin gluing. It's pretty tough stuff, and can be frustrating to cut off the roll if you're in a hurry.

[quote]One suggestion...you'll want to have all your strips ready before you begin gluing. It's pretty tough stuff, and can be frustrating to cut off the roll if you're in a hurry.[/quote]


/\ Amen to that. PLease don't ask me how I know!!

A couple of things if I may...

Doug, who is this guitar for? 0.020" is just a hair over 1/64" and I don't think this is a "big" gap. If the guitar were for myself and no one else, I might be inclined to fill it with epoxy and be done with it. What is the purfling line that sits next to the gap? Black, white? if it's black I would add some ebony dust and CA and call it good.

Now if this guitar is for someone else, depending on who it's for, I may be inclined to also just leave it and fill as mentioned, or I would route the entire thing off and start over using a better tape. I've used the standard 3m masking tape from HD and that has been fine for the first 4 guitars.

The other thing that I find creates gaps is using AR glue and poor tape. The AR will tend to swell the wood and than once dry it will shrink back. I'm betting this is what happened with your binding job on this one, coupled with using poor tape would "stretch" the binding job slightly more, thus causing more gaps.

If you do decide to route off the bindings and start again, you could try the masking tape to dry fit all the bindings on and than flood the channel with CA as many of us do.

Keep us posted on your progress and decision.

_________________
My Facebook Guitar Page

"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson

Fiber tape was suggested to me by Coach Tony Karol and i just bought me some at the local hardware store, gonna give it a try on the next build. A bit of shellac is good advice also.

I don't know if i were to reroute the channel, i'd be tempted to leave it like that and fill the tiny gap with dust and CA like Rod said, especially if you're working with dark wood for the back and sides.

Do you ever have a problem with CA wicking into the Top? Should I shellac post-channeling to prevent this?
Anyone ever use the Black CA from LMI for this task?
-j.

_________________
“If God dwells inside us like some people say, I sure hope He likes enchiladas, because that's what He's getting”
-jack handy

most definitely coat spruce or cedar or redwood channels with shellac to prevent end grain infiltration

Michael, that sounds like a military term

"Boys, now go in there with your heads low, and Darn-it, watch out for that nasty end grain infiltration"

_________________
My Facebook Guitar Page

"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson

I am having pretty good luck with the method Robbie shows in his dvd:



The blue tape just holds things in place. Cotton binding tape provides the pressure to pull the wood binding into the body. I add a few clamps in problem areas.

Look at the gaps critically. If they are too noticable, they will probably make you hate to even look at the guitar. It might be best to route them off and start over again.

_________________
53% of all statistics are made up on the spot
http://driftwoodguitars.blogspot.com/